36: The Disability Diplomat

Tracy Stuckrath [00:00:00]:
Foreign. Welcome to the Eating at a Meeting podcast. I'm your host, Tracy Stuckraft, dietary needs expert, Certified meetings manager, certified food protection manager. I have searched the globe to find people and businesses who are creating safe, sustainable and inclusive food and beverage experiences for their employees, guests, and communities. In each episode, you will find authentic conversations about how food and beverage impacts inclusion, sustainability, culture, community health and wellness. I know that sounds like a lot, but we're going to cover it all. Are you ready to feed, engagement, nourish inclusion, and bolster your bottom line? If so, let's go. Hello, everybody.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:00:51]:
Welcome to the Eating at a Meeting podcast. I'm your host, Tracy Stuckrath, founder of Thrive Meetings and events and. And this podcast. Here on the Eating in a Meeting podcast, we talk to experts about all things food and beverage. We've got farmers and doctors and chefs and eaters. And today we have a disability diplomat. Her name is Donna Mack and she brings a lifetime of disability customer experience that has resulted in more than 35 years of training, presenting and consulting on disability access and inclusion, and has planned and hosted local, regional and national events specific to the disability community. Please help me welcome Donna to the show.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:01:37]:
And she, in her own words, is always the last one chosen for Pictionary. Love that welcome, Donna.

Donna Mack [00:01:45]:
Thanks. It's great to be here. Thanks, Tracy.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:01:48]:
Thanks for being here. My guests might wonder, disability diplomat, what does that have to do with food and beverage? Why don't you answer that question?

Donna Mack [00:01:59]:
Well, okay, so I was born 2 1/2 months premature and was given a 2% chance to survive. And with that came issues with my vision. I was always considered legally blind, but had, you know, but just barely over that limit. And I could read books and ride bikes and I wanted to be an artist. And, you know, I did all the things most kids could do until I was 12. And I think my vision loss for where things were scientifically, medically at that time, it was pretty much inevitable. And so Disability Diplomat kind of has to do with. It's my approach of feeling like I sort of have one foot in both worlds in, like an able bodied sighted world and one foot in the world of disability.

Donna Mack [00:02:57]:
Today we're going to be talking about needs specific to the blind and visually impaired community and how to hopefully make them make us feel more welcome and comfortable eating and meeting and gosh, I love the name of your podcast. That's. That's genius.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:03:17]:
Oh, thank you. I actually have to give credit to a AV guy who was listening to me and he goes, tracy, you're all Things, eating at a meeting. And so I have to give him credit.

Donna Mack [00:03:28]:
Well.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:03:30]:
You and I are friends with Alisa Hayes. And so she and I have talked about mobility, you know, disability as it relates to someone in a wheelchair coming up to a buffet and, or accessing that. And my first experience, which really was an experience, but my first story about the blind and visually impaired was event that I was planning probably at least a decade ago in Austin and the new Hyatt Regency was opening up. And my group was the fourth group, third or fourth group coming in. And they had said that there was a group for the blind visually impaired coming in before us. And someone on my team jokingly said, well, they don't have to have anything ready for them because they can't see it. But come to find out, they actually have to have things even more prepared for you so that you're not having to maneuver her around construction or things like that, but even maneuvering the buffet. Can you explain a little bit about how that kind of really works in the real world?

Donna Mack [00:04:40]:
In the real world? I would say that if you, if you are planning a meeting for a group, for a group that is specifically blind or visually impaired, buffets are not blind friendly, period. They just aren't. I would say it doesn't mean we can't deal with them. But I'm saying if you're talking a group of 30, 50, 500, 1000 people from the blind community, then that's just going to be really difficult to manage. I would suggest, when possible in a situation like that, go with plated meals and past hors d'. Oeuvres. Of course, I don't know with some of this, I don't know what food regulations are. We are in the pandemic right now, so I don't know what differences in food regulations will be.

Donna Mack [00:05:35]:
I would say past hors d' oeuvres or plated meals, a lot of finger foods, because you have people at all levels of eating etiquette in the blind and visually impaired community, because you have them at all different levels of vision loss or visual acuity. And some people, especially people who have previously had sight, are very self conscious about eating in public and they think, okay, if it's, you know, if it's a slider or a piece of pizza or chicken fingers, you know, a veggie tray, something I can pick up and eat with my hands, it's going to be less awkward than having to negotiate with a knife and a fork. I personally, my mom was a drill instructor. I mean, not really, but kind of yes and no. I can remember being in the hospital when my vision was really deteriorating and I had already lost the vision in one eye and my good eye was patched and she had decided that we were going to practice my eating skills and, you know, blindness eating skills. And that day the hospital happened to serve Cornish gay men. And she made me, she made me, you know, use a knife and fork and try to eat it. And I think about, you know, probably 45 minutes in, I just said, I'm ripping the legs off this thing and if there's anything left on the breast, I'm just picking that up too.

Donna Mack [00:07:22]:
But, you know, now, I mean, I'm really grateful because now I don't feel uncomfortable eating in public. And you know, there are some things I would put on the don't serve, you know, if you will, don't serve a blind audience. And those would be things like whole lobsters or any kind of shellfish that's still in the shell will probably be a little bit difficult for a lot of people. No spaghetti, linguine, that type thing, no jello. If you do, if you, if you do want to serve a gelatin dessert, serve it in a ramekin. But I would shy away from it because it gets wiggly. And something else that I think is important is something that I think a lot of probably meeting planners don't think about is, okay, you have like a real thin broth based soup, like maybe a French onion soup that's going to be pretty thin as opposed to a really hearty soup holding, whether it's a spoon or a bowl or a plate level, it requires vision. I mean, I can do it fairly well, but I know that if I have shallow dishes especially, it's really hard for me to not spill a little of a liquid.

Donna Mack [00:09:00]:
So, so I would say keep that in mind with things that you serve. If you're in a buffet line or really anywhere, if you do have an audience of blind and visual in an event with a lot of blind and visually impaired attendees offer covered containers to transport liquids, especially hot liquids. A lot of us will probably have guide dogs. And number one, we don't want to, I mean, we don't want to spill it on ourselves, but we really don't want to spill like hot coffee on our dogs. That would be awful. So, but as far as, as buffets, if you have to have a buffet, just some, just some thought is you are going to again, have people with different levels of vision. And so for people who are low vision, Contrast is key. Okay.

Donna Mack [00:10:00]:
Try to avoid. In any kind of dining situation with people with vision loss, avoid mood lighting and dimmers, which is. Those are just horrible for us. Use tablecloths that contrast with the color of the dishes that you're using. So no white on white. Give us some contrast so that we can actually see where the dishes are placed. And that. That even goes for plates that you would pick up at a serving station.

Donna Mack [00:10:34]:
You know, at a serving table, it's. Sometimes it's tough to find tongs or serving utensils in a buffet line. Sometimes that's difficult to locate because every once in a while, somebody will leave them in the. In the chafing dish, you know, but if you can have, like, a spoon rest of some sort, whether it's a small platter or real spoon rest or a plate maybe in front of the chafing dish so that we can locate it and again, have, you know, maybe a black or a red cloth against, you know, white plate. Or a wife.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:11:16]:
Interesting. Even, like, thinking about going through the buffet and doing that. And this is crazy. It reminded me of a lunch plate years ago. I can't remember her name, but she had asked for a special plate for dietary needs, and we had white tablecloths. They gave it to her on a white plate, and everything on the food, everything they served her was white. So it was.

Donna Mack [00:11:40]:
Wow.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:11:40]:
I mean, she wasn't visually impaired, but she had dietary needs. But it was like white rice and potato. I mean, it was just really. We all at the table got a laugh out of it.

Donna Mack [00:11:49]:
But wow.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:11:51]:
Going to the buffet line, that's pretty. You know, that's a very different thing to think about. I don't think that we've really ever, nor has a hotel really thought about that. When they're designing a buffet, they're just using their standard linens and, you know, and putting it out. But everything is so tightly knit as you go down through a buffet as well, and the spoons there, and you don't know if you've hit a regular shaving dish. Now, individuals who have dietary restrictions, strict ones that really, really need to have a separate plate created for them. Would you be opposed if there was a buffet to actually have a plate delivered to your table instead of having to walk through the buffet? Or would that you want to be part of that buffet service?

Donna Mack [00:12:45]:
I personally would probably want to be part of it, yeah. Unless it was. Unless my diet was just super, super restricted. But you know what? It's kind of a dilemma, in a sense, because most People who are visually impaired. I was gonna. The other thing I was gonna say is always have extra staff on hand because we may need help. We will probably ask for help because of, you know, the challenge of holding a plate level. Sometimes we may ask for help with that.

Donna Mack [00:13:21]:
And I mean, I don't have enough vision to feel confident serving myself in a buffet. I just.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:13:27]:
Right.

Donna Mack [00:13:27]:
I just don't. I mean, I can do that in my own home and I can do that in a friend's home, but not, not in a buffet. Plus, I mean, if you think about it, somebody is either gonna have more than likely a cane or a dog, and they're trying to handle that and a serving utensil and a plate, and it's just, you know, it's gonna be a challenge. So if you can have extra staff and if you can have extra staff who can kind of look at the whole. The buffet as a whole and say, okay, I'm going to tell you we have three entree choices. Because what I find is it's like, I'll hear about the first entree choice, but I won't. Maybe I won't know about the second one. And the first one sounds pretty good, but what I didn't know is there are three choices and the third one is really what I might most want to have.

Donna Mack [00:14:23]:
And if we just go through one by one, it's hard to get a big picture. And the other thing is, you know, to keep all, like, items together in a buffet. Like, I have been to buffets before where they do have multiple entree choices and those are kind of spread out throughout the buffet. And it's like, I don't know, it just. I think it's harder for us to. I don't know. I've talked to a couple of. Because I tried to survey different individuals in the blind community and they were saying, yeah, it's just a whole lot easier if you have all the entrees together and all the salads together and that type thing.

Donna Mack [00:15:09]:
And speaking of salads, y' all need to know that the most artisanal salads are typically the hardest for us. There's very little difference.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:15:23]:
In.

Donna Mack [00:15:25]:
The weight, the weight that is added to a fork. There's very little difference between the weight of just a little bite sized piece of salad and like a leaf, you know, a leaf that has dressing on it that, you know, might cover a quarter of my face. And I'm not going to know the size of the thing until it touches my face. I do tend to probably more Than a lot of people use a knife on my salads if they're not chopped. But when in doubt, make it a chopped salad. Because I think of a taco salad, I don't tend to think of those as having voluminous leaves. And the other kind of salad that I feel like is tough. I mean, a wedge salad is a little bit difficult too.

Donna Mack [00:16:20]:
But those salads, and you guys probably have a technical name for them in the industry, but the ones where like all the cucumbers are together and all the carrots are together, but they're carrot sticks and all the broccoli florets are in the same place and it's like, oh, those can be a challenge. Salad dressing in a little, in a small container, kind of a little ramekin is nice on the side because sometimes it's difficult to tell how much you're pouring out of a container of salad dressing wholeheartedly.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:17:02]:
Even for a vision, someone who has vision, it's very hard and sometimes it gets heavy. Now, do you. Talking about having somebody at the buffet and do you travel with an assistant or seeing eye dog? What? Or do you. How do you travel?

Donna Mack [00:17:19]:
I have a. I personally, I have a guide dog. I mean, I travel independently, but I have a dog. But, you know, she's not going to be able to say, hey, mom, they have salmon and then they have beef tips and gravy. And, you know, she's not going to.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:17:39]:
Be able to guide dogs to spread speak.

Donna Mack [00:17:43]:
Sometimes you would think, but. But you know.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:17:52]:
Okay, so I'm going to jump to, okay, so you're at an event and you've got your guide dog with you where. What's the protocol for her or him?

Donna Mack [00:18:06]:
I. The protocol for her is. Well, a couple of things. If you're staff, please try not to interact with the dog. Because when you do that, that's like somebody trying to tap you on the shoulder and keep asking you questions. When you're trying to cross an intersection in your car, or better yet, an interstate in your car. So that can be a distraction. No human food.

Donna Mack [00:18:40]:
It's not. If you actually see a guide dog, I mean, if you know that that's a guide dog, you can't ask. It's not legal to ask to see a license. The person must maintain control of their animal or they can be asked to leave an establishment. So they need to, you know, the dog can't be just like wandering around. I mean, animals are going to be animals and, you know, things may happen just because they're animals. Like One time my dog got sick in a store and that was just unavoidable. It was just sometimes people get sick in a store.

Donna Mack [00:19:19]:
I mean, you know what I'm saying? But I mean, the dog should not be destructive in any way. They should be well mannered. Typically they will either lie under the table or under the person's chair or maybe to the side of the person. And it's okay to ask. And actually, I love it when staff is thoughtful enough to say, hey, you know, would your dog. Could I bring your dog a bowl of water? And you know, I may accept or decline, but it's really nice that they thought of the dog. But again, no human food, because a working dog with an upset stomach is not a good thing. And plus, you don't want your dog.

Donna Mack [00:20:08]:
It's one thing the way people treat their pet dogs at home, and they may allow them to beg and they may give people food to them, but my dog's out in public and I can't have her acting in public like some people's pet dogs act at their table at dinner time.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:20:26]:
Right, that makes sense.

Donna Mack [00:20:29]:
So.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:20:31]:
They'Re there for comfort, but they're there for a job to help protect.

Donna Mack [00:20:35]:
Yeah, they're there mainly for a job. It doesn't mean that there aren't other kinds of service dogs. But yeah, for this kind, I think it's usually pretty obvious what they're doing. And there are some people who are legally blind. They're not totally blind. They still have some vision, but they have a guide dog. And, you know, that may be because they have some issues with depth, depth perception or whatever. So they maybe really need them for things like stares or maybe their vision in the daytime is pretty good, but in the evening or in dim lighting, they are, you know, just in a world of hurt without that dog.

Donna Mack [00:21:09]:
So just to say.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:21:12]:
No, that. I love that. And so one of the questions that I ask you before we got on the show and that actually I ask all of my guests is what does a safe and inclusive food and beverage experience look like to you from that perspective of being visually impaired? To me, safe and inclusive has similar meanings to somebody who has food allergies, but it also has different connotations. Can you answer that for the audience?

Donna Mack [00:21:46]:
Yeah, I mean, I would say that it probably does follow all the same guidelines that it would for somebody with food allergies or sensitivity sensitivities. But to me, if I have a safe and inclusive food and beverage experience, it means me knowing where my food is. It means food that is not really super challenging. I don't want to feel self conscious during my meal. Okay.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:22:15]:
Okay.

Donna Mack [00:22:16]:
I don't want, I want to be. I love food as well as you can tell. I love food. I want to be able to enjoy that meal as much as anybody else and not have to be worried about how do I execute this bite to get it in my mouth without having part of it drop on the plate or having it be potentially too big or having some awkward thing happen. So, you know, just the ability to do that. And one way that staff can help with that is to, to use the clock method to help a guest orient to, to their plate or really to anything. Meaning that anything that's right in front of me is going to be at 6 o'. Clock.

Donna Mack [00:23:14]:
Anything that's kind of over to. That would be over to my right would be, you know, directly to my right would be at 3 o'. Clock. Sorry, I was trying to think, okay, how am I going to appear on this screen? And it's like, just never mind, I'm going to do it for myself. And what would be at the far edge of my plate would be at 12 o'. Clock. So, you know, and nine and etc. But, you know, for that and to be sure I know where my drink is, I made the mistake one time of drinking some part of someone else's adult beverage.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:23:59]:
Oh my gosh, that's hysterical.

Donna Mack [00:24:01]:
It was really, it was really funny because I remember going, wow, this drink doesn't taste like. I mean, I was really young, I was in college, and it was like, this drink doesn't quite remember tastes like. I really remember it tasting. And oh God, I was so embarrassed when I realized this is not my drink.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:24:23]:
What did that person do?

Donna Mack [00:24:25]:
She didn't, she didn't say anything. That was the worst part. It's like, oh my God, I was so mortified. And it's like, oh my God, let me, let me buy you another drink because I'm an idiot. And oh my gosh, I just wish she would have said, excuse me, you just picked up my drink. I mean, but, you know, kind of, yeah, let us know, let us know where that. We want to know where that dessert plate is out beyond our plate. And especially, like, if you're sitting at round tables, sometimes I find that I don't get information about stuff like the water pitcher in the middle of the table or the condiments.

Donna Mack [00:25:10]:
And you just have to ask. And sometimes you're with a group of people and it's not a big Deal. But sometimes you're with strangers and it's kind of like, okay, I already can't see. They may be staring at me while I cut my meat. So let me try to draw as little attention to myself as possible. And I mean, I have a big personality, so most of the time I'm okay with the attention. But most people aren't and sometimes I'm not.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:25:46]:
Well, and that goes with, I think, a lot of different things. Even people with food allergies, I'm like, they don't want to call attention because their plate is delivered a lot of the times, 15, 10, 15 minutes later. And so they're getting called attention to. But same thing with you. I mean, you want to be part of that, that same table experience without having to be quote, unquote, called out for having a need or I guess, or even a want. Right? So it's absolutely, it's. How can you make that experience so universally designed? So everybody has. It's on a level playing field.

Donna Mack [00:26:28]:
Absolutely.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:26:29]:
I mean, if you're. So if you're the sole visually impaired individual at an event, when you put that on the registration form, somebody has asked you, do you need any assistance here? Are there questions? If you say that I'm visually impaired, what do you. Or blind, what do you want those follow up questions to be from someone, from a meeting planner to help you have that great experience?

Donna Mack [00:27:01]:
You know, that's really interesting because I've always thought, you know, sometimes we have, we have perceptions or ideas of what something's supposed to be based on what our experience has been so far. And I would not have thought about that if you hadn't just asked me that with respect to food and beverage. Because typically what that has meant for me is, okay, I need handouts in electronic format or maybe I need to, depending on what the situation is. If it's like an event I'm speaking for, maybe there needs to be some sort of arrangement for transportation to and from the airport or something. But if it's an event I'm attending, then, you know, it's an Uber thing and it's no big deal. But I never thought about it with respect to food and beverage. But yeah, it would be nice to be asked if I needed help going through a buffet line or, you know, any kind of meal assistance. I mean, because honestly, all I would probably need for the most part is going to be getting through the line and finding a seat.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:28:17]:
Right. And. Or being communicated to saying, hey, we are serving buffet, or this is a plated meal, right? Having a planner communicate those needs or not those needs, but that design in advance to all attendees. Because whether you're visually impaired or mobility, you know, have a wheel, use a wheelchair or a walker or anything, being able to maneuver through that space is really important. In advance.

Donna Mack [00:28:51]:
Yeah, for sure.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:28:53]:
And for you, you know, going. I'm thinking of an event that I attended a couple of years ago, and it was off site, but it was on a beach and all of the food and beverage. That would even be more difficult for you, you know, trying. All of the food stations were. Let's just say they were food trucks, basically stalls on a. But on a beach, you know, getting to that beach first of all and then holding that plate level as you go through different stalls as well.

Donna Mack [00:29:26]:
Right.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:29:26]:
Where are all those stalls? Right.

Donna Mack [00:29:30]:
Yeah, absolutely.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:29:34]:
Now, I've been doing some research and I found one company that will, like, take a restaurant menu and convert it to braille for customers, which is a whole. I found intriguing, is that you just can't take the menu and convert it to braille. You have to design it in a specific way, because sections and things like that, which I find completely intriguing and. But when we're communicating this information to you in advance, like if we put the menu on a PDF on the event app, is that something that. How would we communicate? What's the best way to communicate to you? The menu items and the design of that via website and apps?

Donna Mack [00:30:20]:
I think it depends. I mean, if you're going to have a menu available for everybody else ahead of time, then sure, yeah, have it on the app. But I'm sitting here going, oh, but the app may or may not be accessible.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:30:35]:
That's a whole nother conversation.

Donna Mack [00:30:36]:
That's a whole other. Yeah, that's a whole other issue. Yeah, either that or, I mean, God, just send me. Send it to me in Word format, you know, but. But, you know, if there's a limited menu. If there's a limited menu at the time of the event that maybe most people don't see until the day before or whatever, just as long as I've got somebody there on staff to say, hey, you have a choice of this, this or this, I can roll with that.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:31:03]:
We were talking before we got on here about you going to teach or, you know, speak at a high school, and one of the kids, you know, they had made lasagna and can you. I just love that story and making your. Making him feel like he has to not stand up for himself but step up.

Donna Mack [00:31:28]:
Basically, there was a group of kids and they weren't all high schoolers, this one happened to be. But there were a group of blind and visually impaired young people that I had been asked to come and speak to as an adult with vision loss and basically to say, hey, I am a mom and I have a job and here's how I do some of what I do. And as part of this was like a summer program that went on for a few weeks. And as part of what they'd done, they had gone to the grocery store and so they kind of practiced shopping and budgeting and they wound up preparing lasagna. And they asked me if I would stay for lunch. So I stayed for lunch. And there was a boy at my table, really nice looking kid, dressed pretty stylishly. And, you know, so clearly somebody helped him pick out his clothes because.

Donna Mack [00:32:28]:
Because he was totally blind, you know, and he's asking. And I mean, I had known of this boy since he was very young, so I mean, I knew that he'd never had vision. But he's asking one of the. Oh, and great personality, by the way. But he's asking one of the teachers there, oh, Ms. Grant, would you cut my lasagna? And I said, I'm sorry, but you're sitting at my table and that won't fly. I mean, like, I was the only person with the street cred to be able to say that because all the teachers were sighted. And I said, dude, if you ever want a date, I said, it's absolutely appropriate to say, Ms.

Donna Mack [00:33:16]:
Grant, can I please have a knife? Because I'm having a hard time cutting this stuff with my fork.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:33:22]:
Okay?

Donna Mack [00:33:22]:
But it is not going to fly for you to say, Ms. Grant, would you cut my lasagna? I said, because if you ever want a date, you're not going to be able to say, hey, sweetie, would you come cut my lasagna? So.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:33:40]:
Anyway, reminds me of that commercial where that girl sits down at the table and is. The guy's T shirt is not ironed. And she's like, oh, you look extremely. Whatever. Comfortable is what she said. Right? And it's a commercial for wrinkle remover or whatever. Right. But it's like you have to.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:34:05]:
You got to think about that in advance. And I mean, it's a little bit different. For sure. It's very different. For sure. But you know, saying, hey, you, you've got to be able to fend for yourself at the same time. And it's okay to ask for help, but you also should be able to.

Donna Mack [00:34:23]:
Cut your own, you know, I Mean, and I get if it's something really difficult, like if you've got a steak with the bone and you're having a hard time cutting around the bone or, or something like that, I understand that. I mean, I would have given him a little grace, but it's like, you gotta practice. And I can tell you that I know that there are things now that I use a knife for that as a sighted person, I would have been able to cut with a fork because you have that visual feedback. But because I want to be sure that I get through every layer of that lasagna, I will be using a knife. I mean, for example. Yes. And I know this from personal experience when it hasn't worked. So.

Donna Mack [00:35:15]:
And I would say, yeah, as waitstaff, be sure to have a few extra butter knives and steak knives and napkins on hand because we may ask for those.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:35:27]:
Right. And I'm looking at you've put together this great resource which we're going to a little bit, but we're gonna, we're gonna post it with the podcast on accessibility hacks, inclusive event meals for guests for vision loss. And one of the things down at the bottom is, you know, offer assistance respectfully. So don't. And this was, this is to planners and the staff and, and I think we need to all understand that we can ask if you need support because also coming into a large, which we won't be having any anytime soon, a reception area. Right. How do you, you need assistance or you need a buddy or a guide dog to guide you through that room. And your guide dog is not going to, hey, hey, Mom.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:36:28]:
Mom or Donna. The buffets are over here to the left. Mom. And the buffets are over here to the right. You know, she's not going to know where the bar is or the buffets. So asking we should be okay saying, hey, how can we support you?

Donna Mack [00:36:44]:
Right? Absolutely, absolutely. And the other thing I think I said is, you know, basically we can also say no and accept, accept it. If we say no, most of the time we probably won't. But I have had people who have almost like insisted on helping me when I didn't, you know, it was their issue. It wasn't my issue.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:37:07]:
Okay.

Donna Mack [00:37:08]:
And not, not in a meeting space, but in other spaces.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:37:11]:
Right.

Donna Mack [00:37:12]:
So.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:37:12]:
And I think that just goes with life in general is like we should assume that we need somebody needs help. We should just ask the question, hey, you know, getting help, I mean, even able bodied people. And I, there was a story I read a couple years ago about, you know, Traveling in a wheelchair through New York City or through Venice or whatever, in the cobblestone roads and even with your suitcase. It's hard, right? And vision, you know, I have my vision, I'm able bodied. But it doesn't make it less easy with doing that.

Donna Mack [00:37:50]:
Right.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:37:51]:
One gentleman. Did you see the story on that guy? He was an architect and.

Donna Mack [00:37:57]:
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:37:58]:
And lost his vision. Chris.

Donna Mack [00:38:01]:
Oh my gosh, I can't think of his last name, but yes, actually he was at a conference that I attended back last, like a year ago June. The one that our mutual friend. Our mutual friend attended with me and you weren't there and we missed you.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:38:20]:
Yeah, I need to. Yeah, we need to coordinate that next time.

Donna Mack [00:38:24]:
Yeah, we totally do.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:38:25]:
But I love the fact that he is using his experience as an architect also in the designing of the flooring for visually impaired because like changing the texture floors so that, you know, using your cane, you know, you can actually say, hey, I'm in a different area. Right.

Donna Mack [00:38:47]:
And absolutely.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:38:49]:
Thing to do. Right, right.

Donna Mack [00:38:52]:
I mean, we did that. We did that. We incorporated that in AT&T Stadium. And it was also incorporated in Globe Life Field. And I think with Globe Life Field, one of the things that we talked about and I think this was done is they have those big pass through bathrooms like what you have in an airport. And people were saying, well, sometimes we get lost. And I said, okay, well why not make one end red and another end blue, you know, with like maybe your flooring or you know, some of your walls or something so that people know, okay, I came in the red end, I need to go back out the red end. Do something with color or contrast so that people can visually see that.

Donna Mack [00:39:41]:
And I think that those of us who can't, we're going to remember which way we turned to go into the stall because we have to.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:39:53]:
It's kind of a necessity. And that becomes a challenge too. Even with food allergies, you know, somebody takes the spoon and puts it in the wrong. Just thinking about having to put it down in its right place for the next person to utilize it as they go through the buffet. Makes it very, very important for somebody who's visually impaired or blind. So is there any other tips or tricks for meeting planners that you would love them to think about or know about their guests who are visually impaired?

Donna Mack [00:40:31]:
I guess just that, you know, don't avoid using words like see or watch. Those words aren't. Those words are not going to bite us. 1. No, no. Food that I did not mention is And I see this more with chicken than any other kind of meat. But, like, if you have meat that's cooked on the bone, it's like slow cooked. That's just.

Donna Mack [00:40:54]:
Sometimes that's a nightmare to eat. I'm specifically thinking about this restaurant that I love. It's a Mexican restaurant here in town, and they serve chicken mole over rice. But they give you this leg quarter and the meat's about to fall off the bone. But being able to. That's one of those meals that it's like, oh, God, can I just have the shredded chicken with the mole sauce on top of the rice? It just, it takes some of the enjoyment out of the meal. Just trying to be self, you know, being self conscious about it. So.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:41:36]:
Yeah, I would never really have thought about that. So I'm glad you've really pointed. You know, explain that. That you can be self conscious with eating because you're actually trying to get your hand to your mouth without physically seeing that. And it's something that we all take for granted.

Donna Mack [00:41:53]:
Well, and sometimes it's not even getting it, you know, like with jello. Yeah, it's. It's getting it. It's getting your hand to your mouth with the bite still intact and with. With a few other things. It's like that, but with something like, you know, like the mole situation. I'm sitting here thinking, okay, as I'm like working with my fork to try to get a piece of meat off, am I. Am I making a mess somewhere else? Am I pushing food off the edge of my plate? Because I've, you know, caused this big bunch of chicken bones and meat to, you know, to have moved a little bit.

Donna Mack [00:42:32]:
Am I getting sauce on my, you know.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:42:35]:
Right.

Donna Mack [00:42:35]:
It's. It's just. It's too much. It's too much concentration. It's too much work. Let's just enjoy a meal.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:42:42]:
Right? That's so true. Okay, so we're gonna put that, we're gonna. You and I are gonna work on that cheat sheet.

Donna Mack [00:42:49]:
Yeah, we're gonna expand it.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:42:50]:
We're gonna expand it and we'll make sure that it's uploaded to this podcast. But to end, you know, what is your favorite food and drink to eat now? Since we've been talking about.

Donna Mack [00:43:01]:
I love spicy food. I love Indian food, which I know is very polarizing. I love Indian and I love Mexican food and Tex Mex. And as far as drinks, I. I don't know. I mean, I like water, I like teas a lot.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:43:21]:
So. Okay, all right. So I don't know why this just popped into my head, but oh my gosh, 20 years ago, oh my 22,000. I don't know when it was 99. Oh my gosh, 20 years ago I was doing an event for a company, a fundraiser in la and Stevie Wonder was connected to that organization. And so this, you know, shame on me. I made sure there was a piano on the stage in case he got the gumption to want to play. But I never thought about, you know, what am I going to see feed Stevie Wonder.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:44:01]:
And it may have been in the writer and my 20 years ago brain has left me, but you know, making sure that he's fed right well. And oh, and you know what, at that event.

Donna Mack [00:44:17]:
Well, and something that just prompted me when I was talking about drinks. It's like something you guys need to know if there's a way to do this discreetly or just to ask the person. But for me, never serve me a martini in a martini glass because they're really shallow. And the two times that I've had a martini in a martini glass, I've worn part of the martini. And you know, it's like there's not a rule, nobody. There's nothing wrong with pouring a martini into a different kind of glass.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:44:53]:
Right into a tumbler.

Donna Mack [00:44:54]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Give it to me in a tumbler. I don't care. Give it to me in a wine glass, but just don't give it to me in one of those little shallow funnel shaped.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:45:04]:
I don't know how waitresses carry those anyways, you know.

Donna Mack [00:45:08]:
Yeah, well, I have a, I mean, and you know, it's not like if I'm sitting at a table, it's not like it's really got to go very far to reach my mouth, but I can't. It's, it's not going to awkward.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:45:21]:
Yeah. Okay. All right. Well, I so appreciate what you do across the board and I look forward to collaborating with you on so much more because it's just, it's a new experience and it's something that I think we all take able bodied people and I think this is across the board, you know, take for granted. And I like that you give a different perspective on what we might just find in a textbook. You know, here's the real life, right. Getting that glass to my mouth in a martini glass is really a little bit counting, so.

Donna Mack [00:45:57]:
And if I am needing that martini, that is an important, that's important. That's, you know, that's a mission at that point, so.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:46:07]:
Right, exactly. Well, thank you Donna so much. And how can everybody find you?

Donna Mack [00:46:14]:
They can find me. They can look for me on LinkedIn. I'm at. I think it's dawn and Mac, disability Diplomat. They can follow me on Facebook. Same thing. And my website is disabilitydiplomat.com okay, fantastic.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:46:34]:
Yay.

Donna Mack [00:46:34]:
Yay.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:46:35]:
Thank you. Thank you. Well, everybody, thank you for tuning in to the Eating at a Meeting podcast. I'm Traci Stuckrath, your host, and I'm so glad that you are here with us today. And my esteemed guest, Donna Mack, talking about how to feed individuals who are visually impaired or am blind. So I appreciate the context and I appreciate everybody being here and participating. You can find the Eating at a Meeting podcast on all podcast platforms. You can also go to eatingatameetingpodcast.com oh, and hey, there is an Eating at a Meeting Facebook group.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:47:10]:
It's a free group to join and we just talk about all things food and beverage. Thanks, everybody. Thanks for listening to the Eating at a Meeting podcast where every meal matters. I'm Tracy Stuckrath, your food and beverage inclusion expert. Call me and let's get started right now on creating safe and inclusive food and beverage experiences for your customers, your employees, and your communities. Share the podcast with your friends and colleagues at our Eating at A Meeting Facebook page and on all podcast platforms. To learn more about me and receive valuable information, go to tracystuckrath.com and if you'd like more information on how to feed engagement, nourish inclusion, and bolster your bottom line, then visit eating@ameeting.com.