297: Norovirus 101: What Event Planners Need to Know About Food Safety

Tracy Stuckrath [00:00:07]:
Hey, everybody, and welcome to another episode of catering at a meeting. I am excited to bring to you well, I don't know. It's exciting talking about a virus, but I'm excited to come to you today to talk about norovirus one zero one, what event professionals event planners need to know about food safety. And I'm bringing to you my friend, Francine Shaw, who is the cohost of the podcast Don't Eat Poop, but she's also the founder and CEO of Savvy Food Safety, Track Safety, and my TrackSavvy. Sorry. And my food source, and she has made it a mission to champion food safety in every corner of the industry. So hello, Francine.

Francine Shaw [00:00:50]:
Hi, Tracy. Thank you

Tracy Stuckrath [00:00:51]:
for having me. You're welcome. I'm so we this is really important to have this conversation. And from and LinkedIn post, it's really relevant to you at the moment.

Francine Shaw [00:01:04]:
Yeah. It sure is. I spent some of the listeners probably saw this, but I spent my day yesterday in the ER with my aunt who was diagnosed with norovirus. And I'm thinking, oh my god. How convenient when tomorrow, that's what I'm gonna spend part of my day speaking about. I spend my day speaking about diarrhea and vomiting anyway.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:01:25]:
And now you're dealing with it personally. Yes.

Francine Shaw [00:01:29]:
Some you say that to some people, and it's like, oh my god. She said diarrhea and meetings. But when you're in my world, it's like daily conversation.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:01:37]:
So Right. We don't want people coming and serving us food when they have diarrhea.

Francine Shaw [00:01:42]:
No. You you don't want and norovirus is first of all, you don't want if you've ever seen our part of our logo for don't eat poop, it's the little guy that's on his hands and knees spewing vomit and diarrhea. If I have one thing, it's a sense of humor. And that it it says, norovirus, you don't want it, and you do not want it. It is, like, a miserable illness, and it's the number one foodborne illness in The United States. And I'm gonna venture to say that you and everybody listening to this podcast has had it at least once. I don't know how you can possibly avoid it, especially if you have children. Did you remember and I'm you have a child.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:02:28]:
No. I have children.

Francine Shaw [00:02:29]:
You have children. You know what I mean? So so anybody that has children your kids are healthy all summer long. Food as they go back to school, everybody in the house is sick. And you've all suddenly got what people refer to as the stomach flu or the stomach bug, which is diarrhea and vomiting. And if you've got diarrhea and vomiting and it's that projectile vomiting and explosive diarrhea, that's norovirus. That's what it is. And this stuff is so highly contagious that one person in the household isn't gonna get it. Everybody's gonna get it once one person has it, unless you are, I'm gonna venture to say work in the medical field and know how to prevent everybody from getting this.

Francine Shaw [00:03:20]:
Matt's my cohost on donate poop, and we joke because he has, like, 30 children. And I'm exaggerating. There's 10. But one person alive. It is. One person in his house gets it, and they all get it. 14 people live in the household. And his wife lives in the NICU works in the NICU.

Francine Shaw [00:03:41]:
She probably lives there too, but she works in the NICU. And that's how contagious it is. And if anybody knows how to prevent illness from spreading throughout the household, she does. So it's just so, so contagious. It only takes I sound I feel like I'm ranting here because of my trauma yesterday. It only takes, like, eighteen particles to get this virus. Eighteen particles. Now if you have a pen, a pen, a straight 50, for example, you can fit enough norovirus particles on that pinhead to infect a thousand people.

Francine Shaw [00:04:23]:
What? A thousand people, And that's according to the CDC. Wow. So that's how contagious this is. It can you can infect people for a couple it lives in your stool for a few weeks after you feel beverage. And you remain contagious for a little while after you feel better. So it's just people call it the flu. It's not the flu. It's norovirus.

Francine Shaw [00:04:51]:
And it's just it's a big deal. And we have outbreaks of this year after year. And it's bottom line is it's because people don't wash their hands or they don't wash them effectively. And it spreads because it takes what we call the fecal oral mouth fecal oral route. People get a mushroom that wash their hands and it ends up on doorknobs or tongs or someplace, and then somebody else ingests that fecal matter from an infected individual.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:05:27]:
Now I'm gonna sing happy birthday twice every time I go to the bathroom when I'm washing my hands. So my friend, Christina, just said on Instagram, and I've got we've got a bunch of people listening to us on Instagram. She said, just had a norovirus outbreak at a meeting I planned, but luckily wasn't on-site for. Heading to one in Chicago on Sunday and wondering how one can avoid it. Questions that she should ask the hotel?

Francine Shaw [00:05:53]:
Well, yeah. Do they have a noro norovirus response plan?

Tracy Stuckrath [00:05:58]:
Okay.

Francine Shaw [00:05:59]:
Do they what is their plan for cleaning up the if somebody gets sick? Because if somebody vomits like, you need to plan to just clean up a a 25 foot circle around where somebody got sick because this stuff spreads not just where you see it, but it's airborne. Okay? So your questions for catering partners, like, what food safety training do they receive? Have they received any food safety training? How did how do what kind of food handling and food preparation, how is that done? Do they what kind of cleaning product practices do they follow? Are there sanitation practices, or do we just rinse and wipe? Because that's not gonna kill it. Rinsing and wiping isn't gonna kill it. You need to disinfect. How do we prevent cross contamination? Is that buffet style or are we plating foods? Buffets are norovirus's dream. I mean, that no. Buffets are a dream come true for spreading norovirus. Because if somebody goes to the restroom and they don't wash their and, And this is I hate to be vivid.

Francine Shaw [00:07:16]:
It's and

Tracy Stuckrath [00:07:17]:
Yeah. She just said all of her events are buffet. Everything is.

Francine Shaw [00:07:22]:
This is sometimes the only way to get the message across. Then if anybody listened to our podcast yesterday, there was something that said be like Bob. I'm gonna be like Bob. If somebody is norovirus and they go to the restroom and they don't wash their hands properly, and it's almost impossible to not get some fecal matter, whether it's visible or not, on your needs, and they go out to the salad bar and they pick up the tongs, they're gonna get poo on those tongs. Where do you normally find the tongs at the salad bowl? In the lettuce.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:08:03]:
In the lettuce. Yeah. Yes. So exactly. They're not gonna be back down on the thing. Yep.

Francine Shaw [00:08:08]:
In the lettuce. So now we've got poo lettuce. Right? So what's gonna happen is those people are gonna go through the line, pick up some poo lettuce with those poo tongs and make themselves a poo salad. And that is what happens at the salad bar. And everybody that picks up those tongs from an individual that did not wash their hands, it's cross contamination across the board.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:08:32]:
Okay. I just typed in here onto the thing meetings equals poo salad into the comments. That's crazy.

Francine Shaw [00:08:40]:
I wanna continue with the questions like, what's what are their policies for staph illness? If somebody calls in and says, hey. I'm not feeling real well right now. My stomach's not good. I've got diarrhea. I don't think I'm gonna be able to work today. Can you come in for just a few hours is not the answer to that. They need to stay home. They need to stay home.

Francine Shaw [00:09:02]:
So what are their staff policies? Have they had any previous outbreaks? So

Tracy Stuckrath [00:09:09]:
what can we do proactively? Like, Christina's getting she's sending her group here. She's not gonna be on-site. How can she be proactive with the hotel to prevent this from happening besides asking the questions that you just said?

Francine Shaw [00:09:23]:
So for risk mitigation, she could evaluate the layout and the food service styles. Again, food service style is big, plate versus buffet. Maybe they have if they want to do a buffet style, maybe they have servers behind the buffet serving the food as opposed to self serve buffet. That is an excellent idea. Cruise ships used to have a horrendous problem with norovirus. It's not as bad as it used to be. With a lot of at least the higher end cruise ships, What they've started doing is they've started having servers at the buffets plating the food for the events. So that's an option.

Francine Shaw [00:10:06]:
Provide plenty of handwashing stations for the guests. Something that I wanna point out is hand sanitizer. People are like and sanitizer everywhere. It doesn't kill norovirus. It does nothing for norovirus.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:10:21]:
Okay.

Francine Shaw [00:10:21]:
So hand sanitizer is not gonna kill norovirus because it's an enveloped virus. You need soap or I'm sorry. It's a non enveloped virus. I said that wrong. It it isn't gonna kill it. You need soap and water to kill the norovirus. You use the hand sanitizer sanitizer in addition to washing your hands. It was never meant to be a replacement for I speak really fast.

Francine Shaw [00:10:49]:
Am I speaking

Tracy Stuckrath [00:10:50]:
too fast? No. You're great. You're fine. You're fine. I'm following it all. Yeah.

Francine Shaw [00:10:54]:
Food you, educational training or, again, back to the is the staff educated on food safety protocols? She's within her bounds to ask for evidence that they do training.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:11:08]:
Right. Yeah. Like, follow-up training just before your meeting starts. I'm like, hey. Can we just do can I watch you? Can my staff and your staff go through this training just before we start serving food?

Francine Shaw [00:11:20]:
Exactly. Exactly. I've heard of hearing you. And then prepare responses and strategies for suspected outbreaks. What are we gonna do if there is an outbreak? What are those plans gonna look like? Right. So

Tracy Stuckrath [00:11:35]:
Yeah. Those are Visa. Okay. Those are great questions. And she just said, had to be buffet, it's all on a flow, but it's next week, so don't think they can increase staff at this point. Maybe they can put reminder signs in the restrooms.

Francine Shaw [00:11:48]:
I that's a great idea. Well, legally, handwashing signs should be in the restrooms anyway.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:11:55]:
For staff what drives me nuts with staff, the signs that says staff should be washing their hands before they leave the bathroom, they put it at the sink. It should be that sign should be at the door because if they're gonna not gonna wash their hands, they're not gonna see that sign.

Francine Shaw [00:12:09]:
They're not gonna see it at the sink?

Tracy Stuckrath [00:12:11]:
Right. Because if they're deciding not

Francine Shaw [00:12:12]:
to wash their hands So they should be at the sink Mhmm. And maybe at the door. Maybe on the back of the bathroom food. On the back of the restroom door.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:12:22]:
Right. Well, in So On that note The stall door. The stall door. This has me this is a quandary of mine. Like, we go to the bathroom and then we have to unlock the door. Right? We haven't washed our hands before we touched that lock on the door. Does that make sense? So

Francine Shaw [00:12:39]:
I I know exactly what you're saying.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:12:40]:
We're spreading that right right away on that bathroom on that stall door.

Francine Shaw [00:12:45]:
And then I go out behind you, and I did wash my needs, and now I'm getting because it lives on surfaces for a long time. So now I'm touching that food. And now if you're sick, I may get sick.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:12:58]:
Right. So it's like when you go into the bathroom, you need to put a glove on before you leave the door.

Francine Shaw [00:13:05]:
Have you seen the people that use paper towels to get out of the restroom?

Tracy Stuckrath [00:13:08]:
Yeah. But I'm thinking even the stall door though. Like, you just finished peeing and pooping in the stall and you're you have to put your hand on the lock

Francine Shaw [00:13:17]:
to get yourself out of the bathroom stall. Well, that okay. That's true. So you're hopefully gonna wash your hands when you get to the sink, but, yeah, there's so

Tracy Stuckrath [00:13:27]:
right. And how

Francine Shaw [00:13:28]:
many people use their how many people use their feet to flush the toilet?

Tracy Stuckrath [00:13:32]:
Right. I'm one of those. Yes. What's in the bottom

Francine Shaw [00:13:36]:
of your feet? Right. Yeah.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:13:40]:
Oh, Francine. There are so many germs out there.

Francine Shaw [00:13:42]:
We could do this all day long. We could do this

Tracy Stuckrath [00:13:45]:
all day. Chris and Christina, I like the idea of more signs and definitely targeted to guests as well as the staff. It's she goes, I like the bathroom doors where you wave your hand over the sensor to open the doors. Wish there were more of those.

Francine Shaw [00:13:57]:
Well, and so some facilities stopped using doors on the way out of the restroom, and that's one of the reasons why.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:14:05]:
Right. Yeah. I like the foot thing, the door opener with the foot, but that's hard for some people. You can't some people can't actually do that.

Francine Shaw [00:14:13]:
Well, if you're handicapped, it Right. Exactly. A problem. Right. So, yeah, signage is never a positive signage is never a bad idea. And like I said, if you're in a anywhere where they're serving food legally Mhmm. They're supposed to have signage, like, everywhere Right. As far as handwashing goes.

Francine Shaw [00:14:38]:
Right. Well, and I'm the ability if you have the ability to check that Right. Check it to make sure the signage is there.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:14:47]:
Well, it's

Francine Shaw [00:14:48]:
I go to a lot of food safety conferences. And the one thing that I noticed that it's like, I so want to say something and I bite my tongue, the number of people that do not wash their and, we're at food safety conferences. Yeah. It's like, do you know where you are?

Tracy Stuckrath [00:15:08]:
Well, it's like going to a diabetes conference, and all they're serving is cookies and potato chips and yes. Kind of the same thing. Same mindset. So and this is scary because in a statistic when you reshared the post about this, us chatting today, you said and I did the calculations. I went online and figured out the calculations. But there's a 36% increase in outbreaks between August December of '20 '20 '3 compared to August in 2024. '20 '20 '4 said thirty cent 3036% increase from 2023. Why?

Francine Shaw [00:15:44]:
So we're having this year a lot of and norovirus incidence as I will probably call them. And, a, it's highly contagious. And right now, we're in peak season. It's like October to March is peak season. We spend a lot of time indoors. So we're in close proximity to one another. I'm during COVID, and I'm speculating, during COVID, everybody was on high alert as far as handwashing. We were all over washing and paying extra attention to washing our hands properly and doing everything the way it should be done.

Francine Shaw [00:16:26]:
COVID is becoming more of a memory, and I believe that people are becoming more relaxed in handwashing procedures. And the way that we get rid of lower the risk of norovirus is by washing our hands. So if people are washing their hands less, norovirus is likely to spread more. We said a thousand times here that it's highly contagious. Right. And if we're not washing our hands and it can spread on on doors, on things that we pick up and we put down, it stands to reason that we're gonna have higher incidences of we're getting out more. Right. We're getting again, we're going out.

Francine Shaw [00:17:10]:
We're back to when did you start getting back to, like, live conferences and live events in the last year or so.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:17:17]:
Bigger bigger now. So Dietary just commented on here. Ideally, there should be handwashing station in the food service area. Wash hands in restroom and then again in public view. This might might not be possible at all events, but that's how we did it at Whole Foods. Every time you enter or reenter the department, first stop is the hand catering sink. That's great.

Francine Shaw [00:17:37]:
Well and she brings up a valid point. She's 100%, and Whole Foods does an excellent job. It's double hand catering is what it's called. You wash your hands when you leave the restroom, and when you leave the restroom, you touch the door. Right. Anybody that didn't wash their hands, now you've got their germs. And then you wash your hands again when you get back to your go back into the back of the house, so to speak. So you've contaminated your hands on the way back as well.

Francine Shaw [00:18:08]:
So getting back to your workstation, your hands are contaminated. So, yes, you should wash your hands again. It's an excellent point, but yes.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:18:17]:
Yeah. Thanks, Mary. Appreciate that. The okay. So because you brought up COVID and I commented this, I think I put it in the description of this, is, like, COVID is not transmitted through food, but norovirus is. No. That's correct. And that's a big difference because everybody when COVID hit, everybody's like, Tracy, what's food service? And it was more about the service methods, but this is really about the food.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:18:41]:
And are there specific foods that we should be more worried about than others?

Francine Shaw [00:18:48]:
So norovirus is a foodborne illness. Okay. It is a foodborne illness. Okay? So the answer to the question is yes. There are certain foods that are more likely than kosher shellfish, raw shellfish, a contaminated catering. If it's contaminated with raw suey, that could be a risk. I don't know if and I shouldn't assume, but I don't know if event planners are allowing raw shellfish at their they certainly shouldn't be allowing You meetings, like, oysters

Tracy Stuckrath [00:19:24]:
oysters and things like that? It depends on the event and where it is. Yeah.

Francine Shaw [00:19:28]:
That could be a risk. Anytime if somebody were to directly vomit in or near a food product, that sounds really disgusting, I guess, but it can happen. Right. That food could be potentially be contaminated. And we can't assume that everybody is educated as to how this spread or how far it may travel. But let's say somebody throws up within 10 feet of the salad bar of the buffet. Right. That should be emptied, and everything should be thrown away.

Francine Shaw [00:20:04]:
So what are the procedures for that? The procedures if somebody vomits near the salad bar of the buffet. Right. If there is an outbreak, can they move from do they have the ability to move from buffet style to plated? Right. Because how many people have been exposed? Everybody, potentially.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:20:25]:
Exactly. Well and then your you've got your servers who are going to the back of the house, from the front of the house to the back of the house to get more food. But is there anybody in the back of the house that's just expediting and can take those chafing dishes and turn them into plated meals? That's a good point.

Francine Shaw [00:20:41]:
And at the beginning of the outbreak, it you don't know who caused the outbreak, or did it come from the back of the house? Did it come from a guest? You know, that is a concern. You can't assume

Tracy Stuckrath [00:20:53]:
where So when this happens, do we the health department needs to be called. Correct?

Francine Shaw [00:20:58]:
100%.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:20:59]:
Yes. And then so what's the then so if it does happen at your event, what is the what's the procedure? What happens?

Francine Shaw [00:21:06]:
Okay. So first of all, how many people do you know how many people it takes to constitute an outbreak?

Tracy Stuckrath [00:21:11]:
No. That's a good question. Two? Two people is considered an outbreak. Wow. That's not a lot.

Francine Shaw [00:21:20]:
People with the same illness is considered an outbreak that don't get. Technically, that's the legal definition of an outbreak. But, yes, the health department needs to be notified, and I'm gonna say that health department's gonna make those decisions. Okay. They're gonna tell you what you need

Tracy Stuckrath [00:21:41]:
to do. Well, now what if I go to my bedroom and get sick instead of right next to the buffet and I don't tell anybody? Because I'm embarrassed that I got sick. And

Francine Shaw [00:21:53]:
that's how an outbreak happens. Right.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:21:57]:
Okay.

Francine Shaw [00:21:58]:
It makes sense. Right? Because you went to your bedroom and got sick. And I was at a food safety conference last year, and I was in the elevator. And there were, like, five women in there talking about where they ate night before, and, like, three of them didn't feel well. Or maybe a couple days before, three of them didn't feel well, and there were a couple other people that had eaten there that were in the elevator that didn't feel well. And they were talking about what they had eaten at the conference, and and I'm thinking that have you told anybody? Where else did you eat? Right. And I'm intently listening to this conversation. But if nobody knows, there's nothing they can do.

Francine Shaw [00:22:50]:
Right. Did it come from the event? Did it come from somewhere else? They all went to eat. And, again, this is how these outbreaks happen. Now if you and your like, let's say that you get sick, you get norovirus, and your parents get norovirus. You all live in the same house. Right. That may not be an outbreak because you all live together. You probably got it from each other.

Francine Shaw [00:23:12]:
That's a possibility. But if you get it and somebody else at the conference got it, that could be an outbreak. Okay.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:23:23]:
I'm just thinking, like, my friend And talks about an event years ago that every people got Legionnaires disease. And and that was a couple hundred people that got that from the water in the fountain at the hotel. But is this It really is like, let's put a notice in our event app saying, hey, if you get sick, please notify us. Right? Yes. Because there's this increase in norovirus right now, we wanna be conscientious of anybody that gets sick so that we can help prevent anyone else from getting sick.

Francine Shaw [00:24:00]:
Well, right. And awareness is key. Not you don't wanna

Tracy Stuckrath [00:24:05]:
I'm not gonna say Francine threw up and pooped and all that, but I wanna know that

Francine Shaw [00:24:10]:
yeah. First of all, I'm gonna bring up COVID again just because COVID changed society. Okay? Prior to COVID, if you said, look, we want to implement this because people would have freaked out. Now I think people view it more as a public service, and they're appreciative. So to say to people, if you're showing these symptoms, please do this. Right. And you do it in a positive manner. Or if you send it out in the invites that if you are experiencing such and such symptoms, please don't come to the conference Right.

Francine Shaw [00:24:55]:
Because and are very clear and concise in a positive manner. People are gonna appreciate that. They're not gonna be upset about it. And if they are, too bad. Right. Yeah. How I feel. Because you may have a couple thousand people or a couple hundred people there that they could infect, and you certainly don't want that.

Francine Shaw [00:25:20]:
Right. Yeah. No. You don't.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:25:22]:
I'm texting Christina now to tell her to what you just said and to listen at this at the twenty seven minute mark. Because it is. I'm like, we there are still people that are getting COVID. Right? But this to me, not to just diminish COVID, but this is something I think we need to be putting in our event apps and our preconference information where we're sending to people is, like, just like we want our food service people say to their staff, like, if you feel sick, stay home. Right? Same thing with this. We need to say if you stay sick if you feel sick, stay home. We don't want your germs in a nicer way, but we don't want your germs.

Francine Shaw [00:26:04]:
So I'm not a doctor. Let me preface this. I'm not a doctor. But, you know, I I think right now, today, this week, COVID, there might be some areas right now that are experiencing issues. I think everybody understands the COVID protocol, and I think most people are pretty respectful of that. I mean, they don't want to spread it, nor do they wanna go to an event where they think they may get it. Right. However, I don't know that people are as aware or familiar with the protocol for norovirus.

Francine Shaw [00:26:40]:
And right now, I think that you would be more likely to get norovirus at one of those events than you might be COVID at this time of year Right. With the way things are going with not necessarily from the food. Right. From the other human beings not washing their hands.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:27:02]:
Right. Exactly. Oh, she's just responding back. But, yeah, it is. And that's important to know. I'm about to get on like I said before we got on the show, I'm about to get on and plantbased afternoon to fly to an event and then come back and then go to another event in New Orleans and then an event in Atlantic City. And now I'm like, okay. The one in New Orleans, I'm actually going and I'm talking to the chefs because I'm gonna manage food and beverage.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:27:28]:
So I'm gonna have humongous amounts of questions for them on this site visit saying, hey. What are your protocols? How are you doing this?

Francine Shaw [00:27:36]:
So don't touch the elevator buttons with your finger. Okay.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:27:41]:
Can we just get those little things that way your fingers, stick, like, flipping

Francine Shaw [00:27:44]:
through your ears? I don't I don't think you're always using my knuckles. Yeah. Just because the elevator buttons are one of the most bacteria ridden things

Tracy Stuckrath [00:27:56]:
you can Where's my I'm gonna take, like, a hand food of these well kept celiac and clear of the skin. It'll be before I touch anything.

Francine Shaw [00:28:05]:
Well, but wait. What did I just say about

Tracy Stuckrath [00:28:06]:
our they're not they cannot do that. They don't get rid of it. Not norovirus. Yes. Alright. So and Nancy just replied and or any other screen for that. Don't touch anything. Just don't touch anything.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:28:21]:
Right. Exactly. Like, I'm back won't

Francine Shaw [00:28:24]:
do that to people. I can't do that. And the thing is most of us probably have healthy immune systems, and it's a resilient little virus.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:28:34]:
Virus. Okay. Okay. So are there any I'm gonna totally change the topic here. But are there any technologies or practices that FDA or any other companies in all the food safety comp conferences you go to that can help detect this faster? Norovirus.

Francine Shaw [00:28:54]:
So norovirus can only be detected through doing, like, a vomit sample or a Okay.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:29:02]:
Stool sample.

Francine Shaw [00:29:03]:
Okay. I did see last night, and I didn't have a chance just because of the way my day went to do a lot of research. But there have been rumors for a couple years that there may be a vaccine on the horizon.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:29:20]:
Okay.

Francine Shaw [00:29:21]:
But there's it's like the flu. You know what I mean? You get a flu vaccine, then how many different strains of the vaccine are there?

Tracy Stuckrath [00:29:29]:
Right. Exactly. And how many different strains of norovirus are there? Yeah.

Francine Shaw [00:29:34]:
Well, that's what I mean. That's what I'm saying. How many different strains of norovirus are there?

Tracy Stuckrath [00:29:37]:
Yeah.

Francine Shaw [00:29:38]:
Right. You could swab it and send it to a lab somewhere.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:29:41]:
Right.

Francine Shaw [00:29:42]:
But you don't have time for that. Right.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:29:44]:
So how did your when you took your aunt to the hospital last night, how did they determine it? So

Francine Shaw [00:29:52]:
because of her age, they ran it didn't start it started because she thought she was having a heart problem. And I think truly what happened is she was having a panic attack. She didn't feel well, and she started having these really weird heart things. And then when we got there remember I said explosive diarrhea and erectile vomiting? They ran every test under the sun, like, eight different tubes of blood. They ran, my god, CAT scans. They did everything. The diarrhea started after we got there, and so did the vomiting. They both started after we got there.

Francine Shaw [00:30:34]:
Because the doctor came in, and he's like, she got did she have diarrhea before she got here? And I'm like, that's and when she had to go to the bathroom, it wasn't like, I think I need to go to the bathroom. She's like, I need to go now. Right. I need to go now. And the same way with the meetings, it was like, I'm getting sick now. So that's a very distinct symptom of this. So the doctor came back to talk to me one time it about her blood work and, like, all the blood work. Everything was fine.

Francine Shaw [00:31:10]:
All of this, everything's coming back fine, which is amazing for an 85 year old woman. Right. Everything's coming back fine. And she he said, where is she in the bathroom again? And I said, yeah. She's over in the restroom. And he said, I'm gonna go check with the nurses, and I'm gonna go over there. So I'm not sure at that point if they did a sample of the vomit or not. They've done so many different tests.

Francine Shaw [00:31:40]:
But when he came back the final time, he's like, we have seen so many cases of norovirus. He said, this is what she has. He said she's got norovirus. So Wow. And match

Tracy Stuckrath [00:31:58]:
the Symptoms. Yeah. That's

Francine Shaw [00:32:02]:
Yeah. At that point, I'm like, I was already back in the corner because I know how contagious this is. And I'm like, if I get sick, I can't be sick before tomorrow. And I'm thinking, good god. I have to do live feed on norovirus tomorrow? I don't know.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:32:20]:
Oh my goodness. This is bizarre. Yeah. So how much just thinking about the food handler certification and training for staff, how much and I've I need to renew my I'm actually at the point that I need to renew renew and, so it's been five years. But how much focus is put on that norovirus? And then how often do you meetings in all the companies in the that you work with on food safety, how often are they giving the training around this?

Francine Shaw [00:32:49]:
Okay. So the managers, depending it depends on It depends on a lot of things. Depends. Yeah. It depends on what regulatory jurisdiction. Right. It depends on what regulatory jurisdiction they're in, how often the managers have it, a minimum of once every five years. They should be taking a food manager certification.

Francine Shaw [00:33:15]:
Food handlers, again, same thing. Depends on what regulatory jurisdiction they're in. They may not have to have it. They may not need be required to take a food handler certification course. So it would then depend on what the company's requirements are.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:33:34]:
Okay.

Francine Shaw [00:33:34]:
Many of them don't get it. Now as I said earlier, anybody according to the FDA, anybody that is involved in handling food or has a food service business of any type is supposed to have the norovirus cleanup procedures. They're supposed to have food health policies in place that are written that they're supposed to cover with their staff. I know for a fact that doesn't happen because of what I do for a living. Right. I know that it doesn't happen, but it is supposed to happen. But training is not one and done. You know

Tracy Stuckrath [00:34:15]:
what I mean? Exactly.

Francine Shaw [00:34:16]:
You don't hire somebody, go through this stuff at orientation, and expect that they're gonna

Tracy Stuckrath [00:34:21]:
remember it events weeks two weeks later.

Francine Shaw [00:34:23]:
Because they don't. It's like I always equate it to raising children. You don't say, don't touch that one time and they never touch it or don't do that one time and they never do it. It's a consistent reminder process. You do it with pre staff meetings and you put up visual aids. And there's a multitude of things that you need to do to remind people, have quarterly refreshers of going just going over the paperwork for the the different foodborne illnesses. There are six that need to be reported to the Department of Health if anybody in your facility or on your staff that come down with them because they're highly religious. And norovirus is just one of those.

Francine Shaw [00:35:07]:
So it really depends on the organization and what their how important food safety is to them.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:35:18]:
Right. Exactly. Yeah. And that's just thinking from Christina's perspective and, you know, food, it's like, okay. So what are your food safety practices, and then how did you do this? But this should be something that event planners are asking when they're booking before they book or hire a caterer.

Francine Shaw [00:35:36]:
I can tell you what I wanna tell you. I can tell you that I've got these food safety protocols in place, and this is what we do. And how are you gonna know I'm telling you the truth?

Tracy Stuckrath [00:35:45]:
True.

Francine Shaw [00:35:46]:
Where's the validation verification and validation? Because that's up to you. As the event planner. Just because I said I have it, you need to get some verification and validation. That's your responsibility as an event planner to ask for that.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:36:02]:
Yeah. Good point. Yeah. I got an email from a client, hotel that I'm using, and this is not about norovirus, but it's about labeling of food. And they're like, well, we only label for these three meetings, like nuts and dairy and gluten. I'm like, no. I want you to label if it has any of the top nine allergens in it. Start with the start, you know, as the well, we're just gonna have to reevaluate the size of our label and if we can make it work.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:36:28]:
I'm like, oh, believe me. I'm gonna make you do that.

Francine Shaw [00:36:31]:
If you can't make it work, we're gonna have to do something different.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:36:34]:
Right. Exactly. And then I'm like and I have one woman who's 82 and anaphylactic to wine. And it's so like wine vinegar. And I'm like, and you're gonna label everything for wine, you know, as well because it's I don't want anybody having an anaphylactic reaction, and you shouldn't either. Yeah.

Francine Shaw [00:36:52]:
So if a restaurant I'm gonna go with McDonald's because McDonald's just had Taylor Farms was their supply. They just had an outbreak because Taylor Farms had an issue. Taylor Farms was their vendor. Is this all Taylor Farms' fault? A large portion of it is Taylor Farms supplied the product. Right. But how much liability does McDonald's have for using Taylor Farms and not following up when the verification and validation to make sure that Taylor Farms was doing what they said they were doing. Right.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:37:32]:
Well and then okay. So then I remember sitting in a class and this was about sustainability. And this guy's like, well, we monitor ourselves. We don't have any outside monitoring by anybody. It's just we this is what we say we do. Like, my friend, Mariela, and I are like, but how do we know that you're not lying? Same thing about that. Right? How do you so how often does the health inspector come, and is that something that the health inspector's checking?

Francine Shaw [00:38:02]:
It's not even just the health inspector. They they should have a second, third party auditor come in and check. Health inspectors might come in once a year, maybe. That's the health depart when I took out that took over that city that I was doing health inspectors, I discovered a health inspection hadn't been done in four years for some places. So ask for their second and second or third party third party inspection. Who's doing them? What's who's the company that's doing that? Require it. It Right. If they want your business.

Francine Shaw [00:38:40]:
We take it for granted so much. It's it's Let's see.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:38:45]:
Yeah.

Francine Shaw [00:38:46]:
Beverage assume anything.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:38:48]:
No. And I've done a lot of I've done random posts throughout the years of, like, when I see and I remember walking down Boston and one hotel had their a score in the window. And I'm like, that's great. I said, but how many of you actually ask your hotels that question? You see it at restaurants, so your health inspection score is there on the window. But hotels, you don't see it, and convention centers, you don't see it. I'm like, we need to be asking those questions because this could happen.

Francine Shaw [00:39:15]:
Yeah. And I really question a hundred on a we I just had this conversation with I think it was Hal King. I really question a hundred on a health inspection. And it's not you go in looking for problems, but at any time on any given day, nobody's perfect. And you're bound to find something Right. That's not right. And it may be only for that time while you're there. They may normally do a very good job.

Francine Shaw [00:39:47]:
Right. But I question a

Tracy Stuckrath [00:39:51]:
Right. Yeah.

Francine Shaw [00:39:52]:
979895, but a unless they were closed and just opened.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:40:02]:
Yeah.

Francine Shaw [00:40:03]:
I have serious doubts about that.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:40:06]:
Right. Good point. Yeah. So okay. So what going into a meeting, Christina's got some great service. And if you weren't listening to us at the very beginning, Christina asked a bunch of questions at the very beginning of the show about what we should do. But, you know, because she's got an event next week, what can meeting planners do? What advice do you have meeting planners doing when, like, hey, I'm going to meet the hotel and the convention center and the chef next week for the first time? What do I kinda the contract's already been signed, so it's I'm just there managing food and beverage. But what advice do you have for planners?

Francine Shaw [00:40:46]:
So the contract's already been signed?

Tracy Stuckrath [00:40:48]:
By my client, so that's a done deal.

Francine Shaw [00:40:51]:
Okay. And as an event planner, you're just gonna go in and look at you're going into look at and to manage your food and manage all the food and beverage. Mhmm. Well, really, the things that we already talked about. Right. You go in and you do the the assessment, the venue assessment. You look around the kitchen. Look at what you see.

Francine Shaw [00:41:15]:
You can see a lot. I'm gonna assume that most event planners have basic food safety knowledge.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:41:23]:
I'm gonna say no. Wrong? You're wrong. Okay. Okay. So what should they so that actually, that's a question for you. What should we be going to get our own food handler certification?

Francine Shaw [00:41:33]:
So if you're an event planner and you're responsible for food and beverage, you should have basic food safety knowledge because how can you be responsible? And this is by no means a criticism. How can you be responsible for food and beverage and not have basic food safety knowledge?

Tracy Stuckrath [00:41:49]:
Right.

Francine Shaw [00:41:51]:
How can you be responsible for the people that are coming to eat at that venue and not have basic food safety knowledge? Because how do you know what you're looking for? Right. So step one, at the very minimum, take a food manager. You don't need to be experts. Right. You don't need to be experts. But by all means, you should have just the very basics because you need to know Food handler? Food manager. Food manager. Food handler.

Francine Shaw [00:42:26]:
Food handler is like food manager.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:42:30]:
Okay. Perfect.

Francine Shaw [00:42:31]:
There's a difference, the food manager. Because you need to know, how do you know what the venue layout should look like? How do you know what you're looking for? Is it set up in a way that's gonna prevent cross contamination? And how many hand sinks should they have? Are there things that are allowed to be jacked up in the or when you go into look, do they have the are there shredded carrots in the hand sink? Because there shouldn't be, but there might be. That's a problem. Can you get to the hand sinks? You know what I mean? Right. When you look in the refrigerators, and you should look in the refrigerators, is the

Tracy Stuckrath [00:43:08]:
food storage? Doubt that we're gonna get allowed to be looking in the refrigerators.

Francine Shaw [00:43:13]:
And won't isn't as a food and beverage person, they're not gonna let you if you're in charge of it, they're not gonna let you look in there? No?

Tracy Stuckrath [00:43:19]:
I don't know. Is that I'm gonna try that next week.

Francine Shaw [00:43:23]:
Let me know how that goes. I will. Let me know how that goes. I will definitely Because that food in that refrigerator should be stored it should be stored properly. You know what I mean? Yeah. It yeah. That should be stored properly. But it was the catering meetings that we talked about during that risk assessment because you need to know what your what is your risk.

Francine Shaw [00:43:46]:
You're there and that Right. To determine what the risk assessment is. Hand hygiene practices, where are the handwashing

Tracy Stuckrath [00:43:56]:
The shish.

Francine Shaw [00:43:56]:
Events for the guests, where are they? And if they say to you that, well, we have hand sanitizer stations set up everywhere, that's not enough because Right. The hand sanitizer isn't gonna kill everything. Records for training their staff. Right. Ask for those. Allergies. Again, attendees to do they encourage their attendees to stay in stay at home? Do they have records of the foodborne illness policies? What are their foodborne illness policies? Do they have foodborne illness policies? Exactly. And then there are emergency plans, emergency response strategies for suspected outbreaks.

Francine Shaw [00:44:34]:
Yeah. Because in

Tracy Stuckrath [00:44:35]:
go kind of going back to that, and, like, I wanna know what that happens. If somebody is projectile vomiting in the ballroom or wherever they are, what is your step what is your procedure from your front of house staff to to manage that and call the EMTs and the health department?

Francine Shaw [00:44:52]:
These aren't invasive questions, and that emergency plan doesn't just include that includes how are they cleaning it up. True. Yeah. Yeah. They should have a norovirus norovirus cleanup procedures. So it's like, how are you cleaning this crap up?

Tracy Stuckrath [00:45:13]:
Pun intended. Yeah. Yeah.

Francine Shaw [00:45:15]:
Yeah. Right. Right. How their vendors. How do they select their vendors? Choose fresh and local. How do you know how do you know through Right. What are they doing? Or they are they're harvesting their shellfish from the bottom of the ocean and bringing them in? Or how do you know that they're approved vendors? Right. And if these are all very serious, what cleaning protocols do they follow? How do they prevent cross contamination? Somebody gets sick while they're working.

Francine Shaw [00:45:51]:
What do they do? Do they send them home? Or it's we're shorthanded. We're keeping you.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:45:57]:
What that's a really good point for hotels and convention centers right now because they are short short handed. Right? And you need if somebody's yeah. You need to send them home. Can I jump back to the cross contamination cross contamination versus cross contact? Can you

Francine Shaw [00:46:14]:
Ah, that's a great question, and you obviously know the answer to that question, or I don't think you would have asked it. Yeah. Those words get used interchangeably, and they are not interchangeable. Cross contamination has to do with newborn illnesses. Cross contact is a food allergen phrase. So cross contamination is when we're spreading bacteria and pathogens from one food to another. Cross, I said cross contamination there, didn't I? Cross contact. And I've had editors take this out of my articles, the cross contact out of my and I'm like, no.

Francine Shaw [00:46:54]:
Leave that in there. And cross contact is when the protein that causes the anaphylaxis, anaphylactic reaction is transferred from one one product to another. Gotcha.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:47:11]:
So, like, the piece of cheese getting in the chi in the non cheese halal.

Francine Shaw [00:47:17]:
Right. Or let's say they were talking about this morning on a radio station that I was listening to. There's so much misinformation shared on, like, TV and the radio stations that just boggles my mind. They were talking about peanut butter and jelly and using the same knife for peanut butter and jelly. Okay? Yep. So is that okay or is it not okay? Okay. Well, if you're at home and you wanna use the same knife and nobody's allergic to peanut butter, whatever floats your boat, go ahead and do it. Whatever.

Francine Shaw [00:47:48]:
But if you're working in a restaurant, absolutely, positively not. You cannot do that because that protein from that peanut butter remains on that knife. You can't just wipe it off, and it has to be washed, rinsed, and sanitized to remove that protein from that knife. If you stick it even into that jelly and you can't just because you can't see it in that jelly does not mean that it's not there. Somebody that's allergic to peanut butter could go in anaphylactic shock and die from having that jam spread on something that doesn't even contain peanut butter, and you could kill them.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:48:28]:
That's the difference. Thank you. Thank you. You're welcome. We need that we need that clarification, and I'm glad, you know, the definition is there. It's that the norovirus is the cross contamination. The the food allergy is the cross contact because it yeah.

Francine Shaw [00:48:44]:
It's and they're not visible. Right. You can't see it. Oh, it makes it hard for people to comprehend it sometimes because it's not something that we can see. So it's like, nah. And food allergens are even worse because people just don't take them as seriously as they should. You know?

Tracy Stuckrath [00:49:08]:
And we've got we somebody posted yesterday, like like, there are two deaths there's so many deaths in the last quarter of last year from food allergic reactions in restaurants, and Dominique Brown was at and events. And it just it needs to stop. And it just reiterates the importance of having a culinary concierge be on your staff when you're planning an event to be and just to answer all the questions or ask all the questions that you just said. Right? Because you as a meeting planner, you're handling five zillion details of here's the AV, here's when people are coming into the food, and all the all the details that we handle. But having somebody a % focused on food and beverage is imperative.

Francine Shaw [00:49:53]:
Right. And so many people will. Somebody actually said that this morning. They're like, well, just wipe off the knife and then no. You can't. You just can't do that. You need to use a separate knife. Yeah.

Francine Shaw [00:50:04]:
Yes. Somebody later might make at a separate time might come back in and make jelly bread and use that jelly. And yeah. Yeah. Can't do that.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:50:13]:
Can't do that. Okay. We I have actually got to go get on the drive to get on the plane. So what is your final I have a two hour drive. But what's your final advice around this Norova? Oh, Nancy just said, please take this in the spirit in which it is intended. Watching this episode is like eating just before taking a swim. I'm going to have to wait an hour before I have lunch.

Francine Shaw [00:50:37]:
People say to me all the time, it's like, especially

Tracy Stuckrath [00:50:41]:
when I

Francine Shaw [00:50:41]:
was doing health inspections, how can you do this and just go eat? And we become acclimated to what we do for you don't ever wanna eat lunch with a bunch of health inspectors or a bunch of food safety people because nothing is off the halal, and nothing's off limits.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:50:54]:
Did you watch, it's Bad Monkey. Did you watch that television show?

Francine Shaw [00:50:59]:
I don't think so.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:51:01]:
It's Vince Vaughn, and he's a police officer. And anyways, he becomes he has to go do health inspections, and it's showing some very gross things. And the guy's like, well, no. Don't show

Francine Shaw [00:51:12]:
me down. He's like, yeah. I need to because she got He have pictures that you would just probably never eat again if you saw them. But, you know, it it's what it is. So my what I would say is that, you know, focus overall on the guest experience by priority by prioritizing quality presentation and safety. And say I said safety last, but safety is first. I said mentioned using fresh quality local sourced ingredients, creating that welcoming or you don't wanna scare people, but my you wanna make sure that they're safe. I used to say don't serve anything that you wouldn't eat yourself, but then I discovered there's a lot of people that eat things that I wouldn't necessarily

Tracy Stuckrath [00:51:57]:
eat.

Francine Shaw [00:51:58]:
So you wanna make sure that you like you said earlier, I think accommodate dietary needs. And by doing this and making sure that even your guests are aware that you are putting these protocols in place by seeing the signage and seeing the employees wearing different kosher gloves for different tasks and changing their gloves and washing their hands repeatedly is gonna make them feel valued and engaged in the process. You're gonna grow your venue. You're gonna grow your business when they see that because it makes them feel important and, like, they matter.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:52:41]:
Right. Oh, you couldn't I couldn't have said it better. Thank you.

Francine Shaw [00:52:46]:
You're welcome.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:52:47]:
And just the fact that food safety will help you grow your business. Right? Just in beverage, it's something that we needs we as event professionals who are hiring vendors and looking at vendors is we need to be asking these questions to make sure that we're hiring legitimate and solid organizations.

Francine Shaw [00:53:07]:
And it's important to remember on top of that that it goes beyond asking the questions. Because I assure you, when I ask questions, I get the answers I want to hear. I always get the answers I want to hear. So I need to learn I needed to learn how to ask beyond the questions and to get what I needed to support the answer.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:53:34]:
Give an example of that?

Francine Shaw [00:53:37]:
Sure. If somebody if I ask somebody, so how do you make sure that the buffet temperatures on your buffet are within the food safety standards? And they're like, well, we take temperatures. We take the temperatures every four hours. And that's great. I'm happy to hear that you do that because that's certainly makes me feel better, and it would make our guests feel better as well. Can I see your temperature logs? And then they're like, well, you asked to see the receiving logs for the last thirty days from their vendors. Can I send you receiving logs for the last thirty days from your vendors to make sure that you're using approved suppliers? And they're like and somebody pulled out the book. There were no receiving logs.

Francine Shaw [00:54:27]:
The Wow. Didn't have one receiving log.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:54:32]:
And okay. Just on that one note, and we like, what's an approved vendor? Oh, good question. So

Francine Shaw [00:54:43]:
an approved vendor is somebody that is I needs to just sum this up. An approved them vendor is somebody that is inspected, is following the government regulations, and doing their due diligence to make sure that the food products are safe in a nutshell. Okay. And they can provide you with their HACCP plans. And their anything that you need for that particular product to make sure that it is an approved vendor. If I am working an event and I run out of lemons and I run to the grocery store, the local market to get lemons, is that an approved vendor? No. It is not an approved vendor. Those lemons are fine for you to take home and eat.

Francine Shaw [00:55:35]:
They are not an approved vendor for a restaurant or anybody that's serving the general public. If I have an approved vendor list for, like, a Sysco or a US Foods or and I have all the documentation, and if you ask them for that, they're gonna give it to you. They will give you what you need. They are approved vendors because they can provide you for whatever ingredient you're ordering for them, and they're just the big names. They're the ones that are coming off the top of my head. If you're using local resource food, they need to provide you with the same documentation that you would need from a larger resource. They have to jump through hoops to get that documentation, but they can do it.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:56:25]:
Right. That's what TrackSavvy is doing. Right?

Francine Shaw [00:56:29]:
Yes. Okay. No. Not TrackSavvy. Wrong company.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:56:34]:
My food source. My food source. Okay. But both of them are your company.

Francine Shaw [00:56:40]:
Yes. Yeah. Yes. Okay. Yeah. So but yes. And that's you it legitimately want to maintain those records and make sure that they can provide them because that's important.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:56:52]:
Yeah.

Francine Shaw [00:56:53]:
And it covers you as well because now I have this documentation, but you don't get it once. You have to maintain that documentation.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:57:04]:
Like, annual yeah. Making sure, like, I've got my certification. It's renewed and things like that. Yeah. Okay. Francine, this has been so enlightening. Thank you so much.

Francine Shaw [00:57:16]:
You're welcome. Thank you.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:57:17]:
We I don't want anyone to eat poop, which don't eat poop. Don't eat poop. Is the name of her podcast that she co hosts. Okay. I have it here to here is Savvy Food Safety's website. And then if you'd like to connect with Francine, here is her LinkedIn profile. And any anywhere else they wanna how do where food they

Francine Shaw [00:57:40]:
listen to Don't Eat Poop? Any anywhere where you stream your favorite podcast, we are on halal streaming. Perfect. Awesome.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:57:48]:
Thank you. And you're well I'm so glad that I reached out and got you on here. Thank you, Nancy and Joan and Christina that were listening and tuning and commenting. I appreciate you. And who did I forget up here? Mary, thank you so much for tuning in. We really appreciate this. And, Francine, your wealth of knowledge, and I so appreciate you. Thank you.

Francine Shaw [00:58:10]:
Well, thank you. Thank you for having me. It's been fun.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:58:12]:
Yeah. It's been a lot of vegan. And stay on for one second once I close-up here. Everybody, stay tuned for next week's episode. I will be coming to you, I believe, from the Detroit Airport, but we're gonna talk the next two episodes for January are about nonalcoholic beverages as well as vegan dishes at events, all thanks to Sodexo Live is providing food and beverage director and an executive chef to talk about those. So until then, stay safe and eat well, and thanks for for tuning in. Thanks for listening to the Catering at a Meeting podcast where every meal matters. I'm Tracy Stuckrad, your food and beverage inclusion expert.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:58:54]:
Call me and let's get started right now on creating safe and inclusive food and beverage experiences for your customers, your employees, and your communities. Share the podcast with your friends and colleagues at our catering at a meeting Facebook page and on all podcast platforms. To learn more about me and receive valuable information, go to tracystuckrath.com. And if you'd like more information on how to feed engagement, nourish inclusion, and bolster your bottom line, then visit eating@ameeting.com.