75: Taking Food Allergies Seriously as One Team

Tracy Stuckrath [00:00:00]:
Foreign. Welcome to the Eating at a Meeting podcast. I'm your host, Tracy Stuckraft, dietary needs expert, Certified meetings manager, certified food protection Manager. I have searched the globe to find people and businesses who are creating safe, sustainable, and inclusive food and beverage experiences for their employees, guests, and communities. In each episode, you will find authentic conversations about how food and beverage impacts inclusion, sustainability, culture, community health, and wellness. I know that sounds like a lot, but we're going to cover it all. Are you ready to feed engagement, nourish inclusion, and bolster your bottom line? If so, let's go. I am excited that this month is food allergy awareness month and Celiac Disease awareness month.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:00:56]:
If you didn't know, May. Every May it is that. And this month, I am loading up my speakers with experts in all facets of both food allergies and celiac disease. And my guest today is probably the first chef at a hotel that I talked to about dietary restrictions when I started this 12 years ago. He is the food safety manager at the property, as well as the assistant executive chef at South Point Casino in Las Vegas. Chef Keith.

Chef Keith Norman [00:01:29]:
Yes.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:01:30]:
So excited to talk to you.

Chef Keith Norman [00:01:32]:
Oh, likewise, Tracy. Always good to be in the be in the corner with you.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:01:37]:
Well, thank you very much. And we, I think Carolyn Moassasi introduced us.

Chef Keith Norman [00:01:43]:
Yes.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:01:44]:
And we. You came to meet me when I was speaking at a show in Las Vegas at the Mandalay Bay.

Chef Keith Norman [00:01:51]:
Yeah, yeah.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:01:52]:
And so we've both been involved in the fair food allergy walks, and yes. Talked numerous times. So I am so intrigued and so thankful for what you do around food allergies and food safety. And so I want to really dive into that as a hotel chef and as a food safety trainer. What do we need to know about food allergies and celiac disease coming from your perspective?

Chef Keith Norman [00:02:23]:
Well, I think first of all, we need to take it serious. I think there's, you know, I do a lot of training around town. You know, in 2009, I was probably like some of the chefs that I train now didn't know a whole lot. I mean, I grew out of a olive allergy, but I didn't even know when I started drooling and crazy things started to happen. I didn't even know what it was because, you know, the little cocktail olives, I used to eat those like crazy. And then one day crazy things happened. And not knowing that it was an allergen, I just kind of did what most people do and kind of blew it off. But I think the first thing I would just say is that you Know, chefs, hospitality professionals really just need to take it serious.

Chef Keith Norman [00:03:05]:
And then I think training is key. You got to have a, you know, the awareness has to be so, you know, over the top, you know, that, you know, it can't be. The customer comes in and says, allergen, and you look at them like they have foreheads. I mean, I think it's our responsibility to do the work. And in 2009, you know, meeting professionals like yourself. And again, I didn't even know I had an allergen until I started getting smarter. And I said, oh, by the way, maybe I was allergic to something in the olives. And I grew out of it, so I'm cool now.

Chef Keith Norman [00:03:39]:
I have a daughter who has an avocado allergy, but she got it late in life, in her 20s. So I didn't grow up managing allergens. But I have a lot of my babies. I call them all my babies. From 2009 to now, I've had the honor to serve a lot of my babies and learn from those faces of fear, as I like to say. And it's so rewarding at the end of the day when you take that fearful face and turn it into a face of joy.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:04:10]:
Well, and yes, it is 100% that. And I know you've got so many stories, but what I want to point out to people is that your babies are adults. They're kids. And when they're traveling through or they're going to Las Vegas for an event, they're going to stay at your property because they know you, and they know that you're gonna do it Right. So all the properties have lost their business because they've been burned or gotten sick or something.

Chef Keith Norman [00:04:39]:
Sure, sure.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:04:41]:
I mean. And I think that's a good. You know, that's a sales opportunity, you know.

Chef Keith Norman [00:04:47]:
Yeah. Well, Tracy, I like to say attitude, commitment, knowledge. Right, because, you know, Because. And you know this better than I, when we think about being an inconvenience or being a bother. And unfortunately, there's still a lot of hospitality professionals that think that. That a dietary restriction has to be a bother. I mean, I think it takes planning. Then you have to be committed.

Chef Keith Norman [00:05:10]:
So, you know, I mean, here. And I know you've seen this, too. I mean, I've been around the table when folks are sharing their stories about, you know, losing a family member to food allergies. So I take it serious, my team's committed, and then I go, you know, I think the third leg of the stool is knowledge. You have, you know, you don't have to be. Have a PhD in allergen awareness, but you do have to know, you know, the basics and then you have to have standards in place that address, you know, each of the. When we talk about the flow of food, from the time you tell me allergen, there's a. There's a path that, that, that meal is going to take.

Chef Keith Norman [00:05:51]:
And we need to be aware and have the right attitude and be committed.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:05:58]:
Okay. So there's two things that I. I want to talk about that flow of food.

Chef Keith Norman [00:06:02]:
Yeah.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:06:03]:
I talk about it as the event food chain. And it starts from the. The attendee, you know, communicating their need, but they also have to have the opportunity to communicate their need.

Chef Keith Norman [00:06:16]:
Understood. Yes.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:06:17]:
Which is a meeting planner. And then it goes to the convention services or catering services manager.

Chef Keith Norman [00:06:22]:
Yeah.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:06:23]:
And then the chef or, and, and I, to me, the salesperson for the hotel is in there as well.

Chef Keith Norman [00:06:29]:
Yes.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:06:29]:
And then the chef and the lion cooks, the banquet captain and the lovers and the bartenders. So what. Talk to us about the flow from your perspective.

Chef Keith Norman [00:06:42]:
So if, respectfully, if the director of catering or the sales manager who is dealing with the group. And here I'm fortunate that I know everybody. That's where the conversation has to start. Right. And what I've been proud of in the eight or so conferences that we've done here is my dietary restriction list I had well in advance of the, of the event. And that for a chef, is like gold. So I would say when the meeting planners or you're meeting with the catering director or the sales team, you know, that's where you tell me, that's where you give me information. And then if they, you know, know their group well, getting that information ahead of time is not going to be, you know, an issue.

Chef Keith Norman [00:07:36]:
And once I have information, then I can plan. Because as you know, a catering event can be fun. It's normally stressful. And when you get in the mix of putting plates together and then you get thrown 12 or 15 dietary restrictions, that throws your whole game off. So proper planning is key.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:07:59]:
Wholeheartedly. And I mean, and I did an event. I worked an event at MGM and we had 693 dietary requests.

Chef Keith Norman [00:08:06]:
Yeah. There you go.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:08:07]:
Hello. You bet with that. And that does require a lot of pre planning.

Chef Keith Norman [00:08:13]:
Yeah.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:08:13]:
So one of the things that I do love about what your training is, and I had this experience at your property, is that you've actually, actually really trained your front of house.

Chef Keith Norman [00:08:23]:
You bet.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:08:24]:
And so talk. Tell us what that entailed. And, and is that training constant? And, you know, especially now with COVID you know.

Chef Keith Norman [00:08:34]:
Yeah.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:08:34]:
Are you retraining everybody? How does that work?

Chef Keith Norman [00:08:38]:
So we're one team. So it's not front of the house, back of the house. We're one team. So when I train, we all train together. So I'm a master trainer for our train, and that's what we use here. So starting off, I took the Entire team. There's 400 plus. I took them through the ServSafe course, and that was okay.

Chef Keith Norman [00:08:58]:
But for me, for someone who's new to Allergens, you talking to a computer is not the way to go. So allergic is in the classroom, and that's where I like to be. So we took everyone through Allendra train. As a matter of fact, I just scheduled refresher training for next week. So we do it yearly, of course, 2020. We. We weren't in the building, but we. So everyone in the building has the allotrain certification.

Chef Keith Norman [00:09:27]:
Food. We're separate here. Food and beverage. So. But the food team and catering team all have the Isler train certification. And I'm getting ready to recertify, starting with managers first. And we trickle. We trickle down.

Chef Keith Norman [00:09:42]:
So it can't just be the management team, because I am not on the line. So that cook that is making your meal has to be just as knowledgeable as I.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:09:56]:
And then your servers, same.

Chef Keith Norman [00:09:59]:
We're all one team. Servers are in the room, you know, and what I like to do is when I set the schedule up, the servers are in the room with management. So if there's any questions, we can all talk through it.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:10:12]:
Yeah, well, and that's important because the. The managers, you know, I would. I talked to a hotel years ago, like a decade ago or whatever. And the food and beverage director is like, yeah, everybody with food allergies can walk through our buffet. They know what to look for. And Steph comes in and he's like, oh, no, we manage. We do food allergies. We make special plates all the time.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:10:32]:
Yeah, right. And that disconnect with management is kind of hard because I was taken aback by the food and beverage director's comment.

Chef Keith Norman [00:10:41]:
Sure, sure. Well, I tell you, Tracy, my general manager, who manages Allergens, his wife has. He's in all my training. So from Mr. Mr. G.R. to my food director, they are in my training. So he's.

Chef Keith Norman [00:10:56]:
He's just as aware as everyone else. So respectfully, the food and beverage director that you were dealing with, you know, you gotta get them in the heart. And if not, if they're not feeling that heart thing going on, then you're just a customer. And I try to get. I always show ugly stuff in my training class because I think if I can touch your heart, I got you. And most of my team, you know, when they come out of the room, some are grabbing tissue, some are saying, wow. And, you know, I think those are the things that really, really make. Make that make the difference.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:11:33]:
Yeah. And. And, you know, to be honest with everybody, the ugly thing is death. You know, I mean, and I actually got reached out on LinkedIn the other day. A friend is like, hey, my friend's daughter died of food allergies, and she wants to do this. Can you help me? You know, and there should not be law. There's a law in California, There's Natasha's law in London, and there should not be laws named by. Named for kids who died of food allergies.

Chef Keith Norman [00:12:04]:
Absolutely. But, you know, Tracy, my old boss used to say, you never get a streetlight put in until someone dies. And it's unfortunate that that's the mentality, but I'm happy, and I'll just share this with you real quick. And this is several years ago, we had gone up to the Nevada legislation. We were trying to get some measures put through, and Senator Smith, who was the spokesperson for us, was addressing all of these senators, and we found out that out of. I think it was like eight of them, six of them lived allergens. Right.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:12:45]:
Oh, wow.

Chef Keith Norman [00:12:46]:
Yeah. When she started sharing those stories. Right. Then you saw the tears. Right. So I think. I mean, the whole goal isn't to make people cry.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:12:57]:
Right.

Chef Keith Norman [00:12:58]:
But Senator Smith, may she rest in peace, shared some ugly with these folks, the grandmothers on the board and, you know, that kind of thing. And there was not a dry eye. And I think sometimes, you know, you just gotta. You just gotta hit that heartstring.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:13:15]:
Yeah. Well. And I was talking to Dr. Gupta. Ruchi Gupta.

Chef Keith Norman [00:13:19]:
Yeah.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:13:20]:
With one in ten adults having a food allergy and one in eight kids having a food allergy. You know, it's like Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon. Right. I mean, that's pretty prevalent. And we were. She and I were chatting. And so this is another question that I want to ask. So the Faster act was just passed.

Chef Keith Norman [00:13:43]:
Yeah.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:13:43]:
You know, April 24th.

Chef Keith Norman [00:13:45]:
Yeah.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:13:46]:
And which for everybody, it's food allergy safety training, education and research. I think that's right.

Chef Keith Norman [00:13:55]:
Faster. Yes.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:13:55]:
Yeah, it's faster. And. But part of the Faster act, besides putting some more prevalence onto research, is the fact that sesame was just named the top ninth allergen in the U.S. yes. And I think everybody's going to hear me talk about it in every one of the videos this month. But it's really important because what Dr. Gupta also said and reminded me is that sesame is hidden in much more things than probably milk and eggs are, you know, So, I mean, it's in spices and a variety of other things. And so as a chef, looking at those different allergens and now adding a new one that is even more hidden.

Chef Keith Norman [00:14:42]:
Yeah.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:14:43]:
You know, how is that going to change your perspective in the kitchen? Does it?

Chef Keith Norman [00:14:47]:
Well, nothing really changes for me because I've always looked at the top 10. I include corn in that.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:14:53]:
Wow. Okay.

Chef Keith Norman [00:14:54]:
You know, I include corn. So we have what I like to call food handler cards, which lists all of the top 10, because I did add sesame because I knew it was coming. And corn is probably going to come one day as well. So procedure wise, Tracy, doesn't change for me. An allergen, for me is an allergen. So the protocol and the SOP doesn't change. We may have to do a little bit, but I get sesame now, so it's nothing. Nothing new, you know, But.

Chef Keith Norman [00:15:19]:
But for me, the same procedures would be followed even if sesame had never been mentioned. And I'm hearing it for the first time. We're going to still check the label like we always do. But, you know, the one thing, and I would say this to chefs out there, what I always try to do is just eliminate all of the allergens, period. So sometimes that's cooking a meal, and you're only using herbs and salt and pepper, because allergen guests don't eat fancy. They just want to eat safely. I think for the chefs who are out there who think, well, I can't add flavor. Well, that's not true, because you go back centuries ago, we didn't have those spices.

Chef Keith Norman [00:16:00]:
You know, we. We're able to make our food taste good, though, so.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:16:04]:
Right. Yeah. I mean, we want a meal that is flavorful. We don't realize, as a restaurant here in town, the boring chicken with cold broccoli.

Chef Keith Norman [00:16:14]:
Right, right. Yeah. Yeah.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:16:17]:
I probably should stop saying that about them. They. I never mentioned the restaurant name, but we could. And you can. You can do a lot with flavor with different spices. And you. You can use fresh spices, and fresh herbs is using the boxed or the container, you know, herbs.

Chef Keith Norman [00:16:38]:
Right, right, right. Well, you shouldn't here if, you know, depending on what the allergen is. I never. We never use container, you know, spices. We Always. We always go for it. But you know, Tracy, the other thing on a typical. Say, my Italian room got a ton of ingredients.

Chef Keith Norman [00:17:00]:
Right now we have, we have separate ingredients for allergens. But for a chef, you know, when you mentioned the chicken, I mean, there's so many things that I could do to that chicken to give you some love versus just giving you something that's boring.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:17:18]:
Boring and dry and. Okay, so do you. So in your. In the back of the house, you're prepping all of this stuff. Do you have separate equipment? Do you have the handled. Do you have separate fryers? How do you handle those allergen meals?

Chef Keith Norman [00:17:36]:
So we. So if it's, if it's an item that's coming off the menu, that, that would normally go in the fryer, we'll do that in a pan. Listen, go back to old school. We didn't have deep fryers when I was growing up. Didn't know what one was. So. So it's easy to get a pan heat up grease. And the, the other thing is you want customer aware that it's going to take a little extra time, you know, so we would heat it up and do it separate.

Chef Keith Norman [00:18:00]:
But yes, we use sanjamar. Came out with an allergy kit some time ago. We have those. We have those in every. Actually multiple. In every kitchen. And we've used those for about the last six years.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:18:14]:
Oh, that's awesome.

Chef Keith Norman [00:18:15]:
Yeah.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:18:15]:
And they're purple handled, right?

Chef Keith Norman [00:18:18]:
All purple. The case is purple. And then it has tongs, it has a spatula in there and it has a knife and then with a cutting board. So.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:18:26]:
Okay. Yeah, yeah, because. And just mentioning all of those things, those, all of those different pieces of equipment and including aprons and towels, and those have to be changed out when you're working with food allergic meal.

Chef Keith Norman [00:18:41]:
Sure. Well, you know, the one thing I find with clothing, 99% of the time, clothing doesn't come in contact with anything. It's the hands. So we have a purple allergen glove in place. And the neat thing is with our rooms, there's a designated allergen person. So. Because when you have a busy line, you know, and say, for instance, something comes in, in the broiler, I can't have, you know, that person. So we have one designated person that would stop what they're doing, wash, do, do their thing and prepare.

Chef Keith Norman [00:19:14]:
Prepare the meal. So it's just all a matter of putting things in place that work. And keep in mind, every kitchen is different. So what I do is not the mode. You Know, it's for everybody. You've got to take what I do and then make it work. Make it work for you.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:19:32]:
Yeah. Because some people don't have multiple kitchens to work in or have bigger spaces to do it and probably some don't have a dedicated person. But you could educate and make somebody the dedicated person, right?

Chef Keith Norman [00:19:46]:
If you want to. Absolutely. I mean, out of the 11 restaurants we have here, the only two that, you know, Del Mar Deli, there's just too much going on there. So we don't normally, if we have to do an allergen there, you know, I shy away from it, you know. But, but, but you're right. I mean, if a chef wants to do it, he or she will do it.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:20:08]:
Right. And the. Somebody made. A chef from South Africa today made a comment on my live broadcast that just. The, the. And I don't even remember exactly how he said it, but basically this, the respect and the, the, the diligence needed to do it needs to be taken seriously by our industry.

Chef Keith Norman [00:20:33]:
100. 100. I mean, if you, um, if that allergy meal comes in and you kind of look at it like, oh, right, just kind of no big deal, I got this, then you're going to make a mistake, you know, and you know, mistakes are made. But if you, but if you're serious about it and you know, on the flip side that you have a life. And that's why I tell my team, we literally have a life in our hands and we need to, we need to take it, take it serious. But, and that's what I would say to, you know, all the foodies out there. I mean, these are lives and precious lives and, and you have a right to feel safe in, in a restaurant.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:21:15]:
Oh, I love that. And I just looked it up because, and I think this is really interesting how he said it. Offerings and operations could significantly reduce the physical expenditure and improved quality of life. And so on that note, by doing this and being this proactive about allergens, have you, I mean, you get people that come specifically to your property for you to stay with you, but have you seen a change and in positivity in bringing new customers?

Chef Keith Norman [00:21:46]:
Well, you know, I know I get a lot of repeat customers, but now that my, my email is on our website, I do get a lot of a matter of fact, Saturday we'll have a family in. They reached out to me. Multiple allergens. And you know, so we're gonna have, have a wonderful time with them, you know, but, but again, I go back to. Because I Deal with chefs, you know, all the time. And. And I think a lot of them think when you're busy. Oh, boy.

Chef Keith Norman [00:22:16]:
But if you have, you know, if you have a system in place and again, you realize that. That life on the other end will once I, you know, and you know, this, you know, Kendall Hollinger, you know, Kendall out of California, Kendall is. Yeah. So when Kendall first came to me in 2011, you know, and her mother gave me the story of this baby's life. And she was nine at the time, you know, Kendall, when she comes here, I'm the only one that cooks for her. And she just, you know, and those are the things that a chef has to realize. Once you. Once they.

Chef Keith Norman [00:22:52]:
An allergen guest trust you, you know, you just. You have a family for life. And that's the beauty for me.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:23:01]:
Yeah. And because they trust you and they know you're going to do right by them and create them a meal. And I mean, that, to me, is reoccurring business because you're in a hotel that's a head in a bed.

Chef Keith Norman [00:23:16]:
Yeah, okay. Head to bed. I never. Yeah, but. But you're right, though. I mean, I mean, and then. And then word of mouth. I mean, right.

Chef Keith Norman [00:23:24]:
You know, because if I see some Facebook pages sometimes, hey, we're going to Vegas. Where should you eat? And you know, and I always tell my team, listen, every good team has a great quarterback, and I'm happy to be quarterbacking. Allergen awareness, but I could not do it without them. If they didn't buy in, we just be another property. But no, I get a thrill when a customer comes here and they send Mr. Gone, our owner, a letter saying, hey, we ate in the coffee shop and the server was just knowledgeable. You know, those are things that just make you shine a little better.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:24:04]:
Right. Well, and it's, It's. And I'm glad that you do that because of the servers, because one, to me, it gives them a greater sense of their job and saying, hey, we are the. Because to me, they're the front facing to the customer, and you're in the back of the house, you're making it, but you're not necessarily dealing with that person.

Chef Keith Norman [00:24:28]:
Yeah, no, no. 100%. That's why I say we're one team. And even when we have conflict, meaning, you know, I have an allergen pad in place. A lot of the things that. That I have in place here, we trial by error, you know, so we've made our. We've made our mistakes, and we've learned from them. But when we talk about the flow, you know, I look at the flow from the time you tell me to the time, you know, that server is bringing that item out, and I try to look at that and put all my critical control points in place and.

Chef Keith Norman [00:24:57]:
And go from there. But the server. I think the server is key, because if you give me. If you give me the right information and I write it down correctly, that. That there should be no kinks in the system.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:25:10]:
Yeah. Well, there's a story. I don't think I've told you this, but I. I had an allergic reaction to pineapple January of 2020, and I was at an event, and it was in a drink.

Chef Keith Norman [00:25:22]:
Oh, wow. Yeah.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:25:23]:
Smoothie. And the green smoothie said kale. And, you know, something else on it. And I. I was drinking it, and I'm like, oh, this tastes like pineapple. And.

Chef Keith Norman [00:25:35]:
Oh, wow.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:25:35]:
Yeah, I've never really had. I've eaten pineapple, like, my whole life. And, yeah, I have this. And, yeah, I went back to look at the label that was on, you know, next to the beverage. Didn't say pineapple on it. So I'm like, okay, maybe I'm just crazy, and, you know, this is just in my head. But I. I stayed there for a few minutes, and this server came out, and she pulled out the.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:26:00]:
The note from her pocket, and she had written down what was in the dish or what was in the drink, because she noticed. And I love this. She noticed that the other chef that was making the refresh, the. The restocking of that juice used a different recipe. So they had the same. They had two different recipes with the same name.

Chef Keith Norman [00:26:22]:
Oh, yeah.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:26:23]:
So. And so that's what happened. I mean, and security came and checked my EpiPens and. And all that stuff. I did not. I told Richie this, and she's like, why did you not give yourself the EpiPen? Like, because I was about to get on stage. But that's not an excuse.

Chef Keith Norman [00:26:39]:
Right, Right. Yeah.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:26:41]:
Yeah. And then again, I should go and get followed up and get an allergy test to see if I have actual allergy to pineapple. But it's. But to me, that server needs a gold medal. Right?

Chef Keith Norman [00:26:55]:
Yeah.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:26:56]:
Because she. She noticed something different.

Chef Keith Norman [00:26:59]:
Yeah.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:27:00]:
And that's where that team comes in that you mentioned.

Chef Keith Norman [00:27:02]:
But I wish that they would have caught it before you had the drink.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:27:06]:
Right.

Chef Keith Norman [00:27:06]:
You know? You know? Yeah. I mean, if you only focus on the kitchen and you don't focus on the front, then. Then the front, they're not giving you good information. So even my gm, like I said, no pressure on the team, but when he's sitting in class with us, you know, and he has, he lives allergens. So it's a little, you know, it's a little different for those who live allergens versus those who do not. But, you know, I have a lot of workers on staff that have food allergies and they, they manage it and I keep on about their EpiPen and, you know, things like that. We try to. I have one that's deathly allergic to seafood, so we keep them completely away from seafood, you know, but no, and you've been, We've talked, we've said server many times.

Chef Keith Norman [00:27:54]:
And I think they are, they are the backbone because it definitely. And you know, Tracy and I know you know this when you, when you go out, if that server makes you feel comfortable, then you just feel comfortable. You know, that's what I try to give to my team. You know, and then we like to talk about the risk takers. Right? The ones who just want what they want. And I love having those conversations with them. And I never expect my team to have a grown up conversation with an allergen guest who wants shrimp when they know that they're allergic to shrimp. So I love those conversations because I think a lot of them have never seen the Kendall Hollingers and, and the Brian Hom story.

Chef Keith Norman [00:28:37]:
They never heard those stories, you know, and I think those are important.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:28:41]:
Well, and I think meeting planners experience that, that diner a lot because they're like, oh, hey, I'm gluten free. And then they go and drink beer or they go eat. They're like, oh, I can have this bread, but not that bread. They're not necessarily. They could potentially be somebody with food allergies that are just ignoring it.

Chef Keith Norman [00:29:00]:
Yeah, you bet.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:29:02]:
That's. And meeting planners struggle with that because, like, what happens if they do get sick? And we've told them that it's included, but they still choose to eat it. Right.

Chef Keith Norman [00:29:14]:
Well, are those are, you know, the Google guests? The ones they Google and you know, and try to diagnose from Google? Yeah, I mean, you know, I mean, you Google and you get the wrong information. And I think some folks that go out to conferences, you know, but I like to call them the risk takers because I hear we get customers sometimes who believe that a little bit won't hurt. But as you know as well as I, that trace amount can, can be deadly. So.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:29:44]:
Yep.

Chef Keith Norman [00:29:44]:
So we already know we have a lot of work to do.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:29:47]:
Yeah. Well, and the other day I did a video on the sesame thing, and I put a sesame seed on my finger, and I did it like, close up. I'm like, this little tiny thing can actually harm you. Harm somebody, you know, I mean, and. And that's even bigger than a crumb, you know?

Chef Keith Norman [00:30:03]:
Yeah.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:30:04]:
So it's kind of crazy.

Chef Keith Norman [00:30:06]:
Yeah.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:30:07]:
Okay, so is there anything else, you know, from, you know, thinking about this that we really need to know based on, you know, as a food safety instructor, what we need to do and planning better for dietary needs?

Chef Keith Norman [00:30:23]:
Well, I mean, just accurate information, I think. Yeah. And, you know, the other thing is the folks who only tell us part of the story, I mean, if you have a lot of things going on, trust me with the information. But I think. I think in the beginning, when the planning. Then when the event is being planned, that's where it all starts. Because, you know, and when you reach out to your attendees, you know, they need to trust you with the information so that you get the right information to us. But I think attitude, commitment, knowledge, training is key.

Chef Keith Norman [00:31:01]:
And I would also say to the event planners, you got to ask us questions. Because in this day and age, I mean, I started doing this in 2009, and if you remember, we go back to 2000, you know, there's been allergen information around for a while. So there's no excuse for a chef or a food and beverage, you know, a hospitality property, restaurant that shouldn't be at least, you know, when you say raise the bar, I mean, everybody's bar should be up here. You know, when it comes to allergens, because they're not. Can they be daunting? Sure. But if you have a plan, and like I said, when an allergen comes in on one of our lines, the person doing the allergen doesn't look like, oh, you know, they're not. They're not worried because we, you know, coffee shop for last month did 250 allergens in 30 days in that room. Yeah.

Chef Keith Norman [00:32:01]:
So I track it. I get a report every month. And that's what I like to share in the managers meeting. Right. Because we're doing them. And I try to keep my team because I don't want them to get complacent. You know, so when you hear that number. And again, gluten is my biggest one.

Chef Keith Norman [00:32:16]:
But again, I try to point out to them, you're doing the numbers, and for, you know, you've done 200 plus and you've done them safely, but I Would say to the chefs out there, if you're doing allergens now, which I would imagine everybody is, don't get complacent. Right. Don't, you know, I mean, if you're not doing 200, that's okay. If you're doing one or two a week, that's okay. But you got to focus on, you know, the allergen. And that guess has to be, you know, 100%. You know, your focus from the time you start the meal to the time you end the meal. And then normally when that customer sends that comment card in praising you, that's a beautiful thing.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:33:03]:
Yeah. Okay, so I want to jump back to that 250 from the coffee shop. And so I assume that you have something on the POS system. We have register that they mark.

Chef Keith Norman [00:33:15]:
Yeah, so. So our allergen pad matches our POS system. So I have. I have a allergen screen. So when you put in allergen, then the allergen screen comes up. It has the top 10, plus it has. We get a lot of garlic, we get a lot of onions, we get a lot of pepper, we get citrus, we get things like that. So the allergen screen.

Chef Keith Norman [00:33:38]:
And again, keep in mind, the allergen screen is only so big, so I can't put everything there. Allergen screen comes up, server punches in XYZ and then hit send. And when it. When it goes to the kitchen, it prints in red, says allergen alert. And then it lists all my allergens. Then when the customers copy, print, prints the same way, allergen. Then list, list, list the allergens.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:34:03]:
Okay, that's awesome.

Chef Keith Norman [00:34:06]:
Yeah.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:34:08]:
What about on your banquet event orders?

Chef Keith Norman [00:34:11]:
So banquets, again, it all starts with the sales manager and the catering director. They have to do their part. And then. And the chef is normally in that mix, which is key. Right. So the chef is normally in that mix. And then what I've had in the past is I'll get an Excel sheet with the name of the attendee, their allergens. And then what I also like to ask is, how do you cook for yourself at home? What items do you like? Because sometimes, if I know, say, for instance, I get a menu, and for lack of better, chicken and broccoli is on the menu.

Chef Keith Norman [00:34:48]:
But, you know, information up front is key. And then the chef, in conjunction with. Because we're a team, and we all sit down, I'm normally in that conversation. And then we talk through what the meals, what the meals will be. So we just had a Banquet. Knock on wood. After 14 months. We had a banquet yesterday for 190.

Chef Keith Norman [00:35:08]:
I had 30 allergen meals on that banquet. So we did those first out the way, and we. And to keep it simple, we just did the same meal for all of those allergen guests, and then we turned to and did the rest of the rest of the meal. So I think you have to have the event planner, catering director, sales, sales team, because they're normally the ones selling the space. Right. Gotta have all those in the room. Cause you know what I found? Catering director has some information. Sales has some information.

Chef Keith Norman [00:35:39]:
Oh, they knew the chef was. So they reached out to the chef. So everybody has different information. So we all. We all need to be in the same room.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:35:47]:
Oh, I love that. You know, because it. It's coming from different perspectives, and it. The salesperson might be getting it from the meeting planner and. But the attendee may have called you and.

Chef Keith Norman [00:35:58]:
Absolutely.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:35:58]:
Yeah.

Chef Keith Norman [00:35:59]:
A lot of. A lot of attendees want to talk to the chef, which is okay. But the sales team, in most cases has started off the conversation. So my event planner has said to the sales team, hey, we've got 30 dietary needs. Now the sales team passes it off to our catering team. But they missed some things. Right. You got to be in the same room.

Chef Keith Norman [00:36:27]:
Got to be in the same room.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:36:29]:
And go over it. Reiterate it at that. Your pre con meeting.

Chef Keith Norman [00:36:34]:
You bet.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:36:35]:
Yeah, that.

Chef Keith Norman [00:36:36]:
And that's what. In the. Some of the events that we've hosted here that I've been. That's what we do. We're all in the same room. And then, you know, it's not a surprise for you as the event planner as to what we're going to do, because we've given you those. Those instructions. And then.

Chef Keith Norman [00:36:54]:
And then we also have to keep in the back of our mind, things change.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:36:58]:
Right.

Chef Keith Norman [00:36:59]:
So you've got to be. You just got to be flexible.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:37:02]:
That's what this industry is all about.

Chef Keith Norman [00:37:04]:
Yes. Yeah.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:37:07]:
Well, Chef Keith Norman. Oh, adore you. Thank you.

Chef Keith Norman [00:37:10]:
Oh, likewise. Yeah.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:37:12]:
I. Your work in this industry, and it. It actually really kind of blows my mind because I've talked to Leanne, I've talked to you, and we all started this journey about the same time.

Chef Keith Norman [00:37:22]:
Yeah.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:37:23]:
And we're getting. We're getting there. We're really pushing it forward, and I really commend you for sticking with it and, you know, and our. And all of us working towards this. So thank you so much for allergies.

Chef Keith Norman [00:37:38]:
Lives matter.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:37:39]:
Allergen. They do matter.

Chef Keith Norman [00:37:41]:
Absolutely.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:37:42]:
Yeah. Okay. Well everybody, thank you for listening in. This is the Eating at a Meeting podcast where we talk about how to create safe, inclusive and sustainable food and beverage experiences. Share this podcast with your friends and family. You can find it on all podcast platforms. And if you're in the meetings industry or you plan food and beverage, join the Eating at a Meeting Facebook group and you know, we'll see you there. And until then, stay safe and eat well.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:38:11]:
Thanks for listening to the Eating at a Meeting podcast where every meal matters. I'm Traci Stuckrath, your food and beverage inclusion expert. Call me and let's get started right now on creating safe and inclusive food and beverage experiences for your customers, your employees and your communities. Share the podcast with your friends and colleagues at our Eating at a Meeting Facebook page and on all podcast platforms. To learn more about me and receive valuable information, go to tracystuckrath.com and if you'd like more information on how to feed engagement, nourish inclusion, and bolster your bottom line, then visit eating@ameeting.com.