177: Mindful Mixology

Derek Brown [00:00:00]:
You.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:00:01]:
Happy new year, everybody. Oh, I had my I had a thing of a jig, but I don't have it anymore. Happy new year. This is Tracy StarCraft and you are here for eating at a meeting live. And that thing is called a noise maker. I did have one from spin class the other day, but oh, well. So welcome to hang on, I got to myself. Just popped on LinkedIn over here really loud. So hi, happy new year. We're going to start fresh here. I am Tracy StarCraft, host of Eating at a meeting live. And that's where you are today. Hope you had a great holiday and you're ready to kick off 2023 and thrive throughout the year. My guest today is this guy, Derek Brown. He is author of Mindful mixology, a comprehensive guide to no and low alcohol cocktails. I've got mine here. He's the founder of positive Damage incorporated and a former owner of the Columbia room in Washington, DC. So. Hello, Derek.

Derek Brown [00:01:06]:
Hey, Tracy. How are you?

Tracy Stuckrath [00:01:07]:
I am good, how are you?

Derek Brown [00:01:09]:
I'm doing awesome, thanks.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:01:10]:
Happy new year.

Derek Brown [00:01:11]:
Happy new year to you.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:01:13]:
So we got introduced from our mutual friend Abby Ferguson and who I've known from Atlanta food and wine festival a long time ago and whose CEO will be on the show next week. Co founder will be on the show next week. Yeah, Lauren talking about spiritless. She is awesome. But Abby's, like, you need to meet Derek Brown and you need to read this book. So I have this book, and as you can see, I've been reading it and have lots of chats on here. So I want to get talking to you about the book and what brought you derek, do you want to say that John Chen is in the house? Happy new year to you too. And yes, it is a hot new trend, which let's talk about the word trend. It's not going to go away, Derek, right?

Derek Brown [00:02:04]:
No, it's not going to go away. And in fact, I mean, one of the funny things is and we can get more into this, I don't have to go into detail right off the bat, but it's also not a trend. It's been around for a very long time. It's part of one of the largest social movements in the United States. But we'll talk about that later.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:02:20]:
Well, yeah, and I think you mentioned a lot of that in the book, too, because of where you found cocktail recipes and things. So how did you get into you're a bartender. How did you get into the low and no alcohol, no alcoholic beverage cocktail space, no ABV, right?

Derek Brown [00:02:38]:
Well, there's a couple of different paths that I had to entry. But one of the interesting things is that for the longest time and I still have a company called drink company that does that, used to manage some of the bars that I owned, such as the Columbia room and we had a pop up bar and so forth. And my partner at the time, Angie Featherston, didn't drink. And when I first met her, she actually came up to my bar when I was a bartender, and she said, I would like a drink that doesn't have alcohol. And it wasn't because she had a problem, it wasn't for any religious reasons. She just didn't really like the taste of alcohol. And so she asked me for a complex, interesting drink that didn't have alcohol in it. So I actually was able to reach in my sort of bag of tricks and food a recipe from Jerry Thomas, who is kind of credited as one of the early bartenders in the United States, celebrity bartenders. And he wrote the first bartender's guide called a Bonvillance Guide, or how to Mix Drinks. And so I took a drink from that called the Orgiat Lemonade, which is delicious. Orgiate is like an almond syrup with fresh lemon juice and powdered sugar. I used mint, crushed ice, and it was a great drink. That's how we became friends and then we became partners after that. So early on, I kind of understood the need for great no and low alcohol drinks. But the truth is that I didn't know how much we needed them at the time, right? So they're still kind of tucked away. You'd have to ask, and that having to ask can be something that's like kind of embarrassing moment for people. And it can feel like they're either left out or they have to admit to everybody their whole life story by saying, I don't drink. And so over time, I started to realize the necessity of putting this up front, right? Instead of this just being kind of at first the thing I had tucked away, it moved to the thing that we put at the bottom of the menu, right? The non alcoholic drinks, the kitty drinks, lemonade soda, and one or two non alcoholic drinks. And now the Columbia room. I closed it earlier this year, but by the end of it, we had those integrated into the menu in a way that people could feel fully adult ordering them, you know what I mean? They could feel like a real human being instead of feeling like they had to go down to the very bottom and be like, does this have alcohol? Does that not alcohol have alcohol? So I guess for me it was early on, but also I started to reappraise my relationship with alcohol over time. And so in 2019, I stopped drinking. And I don't identify as an alcoholic, and that's not necessarily what I'm going to do forever, but right now I don't drink. And so this all is a selfish ploy. I want more non alcoholic choices out there in the world.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:05:31]:
Well, I love your selfish ploy because it's selfish for me too, because as I said in the introduction or the post for this is like, I stopped drinking in 2019 as well, and I want something different to drink. And like your partner, I'm like I want it to be sophisticated. And people ask, what do you like? I'm like I like ginger. I want low sugar. I want just a good flavor. I don't mind a club soda with a lime, don't get me wrong. But I do want, as you call it in the book, sophistication to a beverage. And I stopped drinking soda in 1995.

Derek Brown [00:06:10]:
Yeah, I don't know what's worse, alcohol or soda. Probably alcohol, but ultimately they both are not great things. But it's interesting because the way my life partner, Maria Bow, says, she's also a partner in my business now, too, and is a wonderful advocate for these things. She says that when she goes and sits down for a dinner, the glass of wine is what makes her feel like an adult in a way. And I think that's true for a lot of us. Right. So I don't look down on that at all, and I get it. But for some of us who aren't drinking and still want that experience, we want something complex and interesting because it really still is exciting to drink something that has all of those complex flavors and bitterness and sweetness and sourness. It kind of lights up our brain and it's exciting. So I think that whether or not it has alcohol in it, it really can foster this kind of excitement and positive emotions in us. And so I get it, and I want to provide that for people.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:07:09]:
Yeah, I agree, because it's like my friend Joan Pisernstott and your fellow DC person here posted in here. In the meetings industry, there have been friends of Bill events for many years, which is non drinking are encouraging non alcohol at event and follow up. Question is, why is the meetings industry still pushing alcohol as a way to have fun and be open to conversations? I think it's the last one in here that I found today. I love the fact in the book that you have these green pages that are written by other people.

Derek Brown [00:07:52]:
And I.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:07:53]:
Don'T remember where it was, but it was just the complexity of the drink makes it an adult beverage. Right. And I love that I always talk about the Dixie sized cup of water that you get. Right?

Derek Brown [00:08:09]:
Yeah, exactly. I mean, in all of it, there's so many things that make a cocktail a cocktail, right? And obviously there's no other non alcoholic beverages, too, but for a cocktail, it's in a beautiful glass. It has that really beautiful garnish on it. It has all of these different aspects. It's an intensity of flavor. There's this peak and see or bite that you get from it. And so in that book, I tried to talk about how you could create cocktails, and in some cases you can make it out of household ingredients. Right. So, for instance, there's a drink in here called the Pinch Hitter that is lemonade, right? So the joke is all we got was lemonade and soda. And here I am now pushing a lemonade drink. But in all fairness, it's a very good one and it's a complex one. And here's what I did. I took lemon juice and I took ginger syrup instead of syrup, all right? So I added ginger to it so it has a little more bite and intensity to it. I added salt, which adds a little bit of texture and cuts down some of the bitterness. I added apple cider vinegar, which is a spoonful of it, which is a byproduct of alcohol, right, but doesn't have any alcohol in it and adds a lot of that funky esters that you can get from alcohol sometimes. And then aquafaba, right, which I know that we're going to talk about an hour whenever you talk about it.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:09:33]:
Now, aquafaba, everybody. It's the liquid from a chickpea can.

Derek Brown [00:09:38]:
That's right.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:09:39]:
So save that liquid.

Derek Brown [00:09:41]:
It's a 99 cent ingredient for a lot of it. Right. This whole drink, the Pinch Hitter, you can kind of build around, and you have all these ingredients. They're all household or grocery store ingredients, and it creates a sophisticated, interesting drink. But not only that, there's such an array of non alcoholic spirits, wines and beers out there. We mentioned Abby and we mentioned or I guess Lauren, who's going to be on next week from Spirit List. They have Kentucky 74. I used to work for them all, so I'll give that caveat. But I still love their product even after I don't work for them. So it's a good one. It's like a bourbon alternative. So there's lots of options out there. And so there's so many options, but they're still finding their audience in the sense that one of your guests had mentioned about why don't they have this at meetings? And I think that's our question. That's the premise of this, right? Why don't they have it? And they should, because people want it. 23% of the population don't drink, right?

Tracy Stuckrath [00:10:44]:
Right.

Derek Brown [00:10:45]:
We're talking about adults, but 80% of the people who buy these products also drink alcohol. So you have a wide group of people both don't drink and drink who are interested in these products.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:10:59]:
Well, and then just to take that 23%, I think it's 30% don't drink or stop after the first drink. So that combines those two. So it's a huge opportunity and to add more revenue to your bottom line in making sure that and actually, I met a woman last week in Minneapolis. I kept saying Wisconsin in Minneapolis. And she started zero proof collaborative. And she said she went to actually, the salon owner, hair salon owner opened up a non alcoholic store next to her salon and it was packed when it opened, it was like 16 people in the store and it was not a big store. But she's like, I went to her grand opening and I stayed for 3 hours instead of leaving after an hour. And so think about how much more money you can make on your cash bar by adding those non alcoholic beverages.

Derek Brown [00:11:58]:
Yeah. Well, going back to this idea, it's a trend, right? It is. I do recognize that there is an explosion of non alcoholic spirits, beers, wine, cocktails, et cetera. And there's more interest than ever in the media, but in the sense that there's always been people who are interested in it, not just in the historical perspective, but the people are just coming, as you mentioned, come to the bar or meeting and they just have a soda and lime and then they leave. Or they feel kind of left out overall. And that's not the feeling that we want to engender in people in hospitality. It's the exact opposite of what we want to do.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:12:36]:
Exactly. All right, I want to give it a shout out to Alex here. Rhodey and super excited. Love the book, especially the Oregon Lemon recipe. Demonstrates that non alcohol doesn't have to be boring. I love that. And an index would be nice. Here's what I have, what I can make. Yes, that's very cool. And then Lynn Wellish wrote in and she actually commented before we went live too would be lost without nectar of the God's Diet Coke. You need to let that go. Lynn at Caffeine after Five is way too much. Yes. For anybody. It is, but it really does add. And one of the reasons and I wrote this thing is I didn't want the calories, I didn't want the after effects of alcohol, but I didn't want to spend the money. And I think one of the things that you've pointed out in the book that I think is really important is that if we do want the sophistication in a drink, it does take time to create these recipes. It's not just like a soda and a lie. Right. So if I do want this drink, I have to be willing to pay for it as well because it's a design, it's a recipe.

Derek Brown [00:13:49]:
Yeah. I wrote an article for wine enthusiasts about a year or two ago. I don't remember exactly, but it was arguing why you should pay as much for non alcoholic cocktails as cocktails with alcohol. And the bottom line is that we're putting the same level of ingredients. Obviously, if it's like a very cheap ingredients and it's poorly made, then I get it. Don't charge more for that. But if you're taking somebody who has studied this craft to really make excellent cocktails and they are seeking these ingredients that are exotic and interesting and expensive, then they should cost the same amount of money. I'll give you one example from the Columbia Room. I had a cocktail that had ants in it, right? So I was inspired by Renee Rizepi, who has noma and is a world famous chef. He had used black ants in one of his recipes because it tastes like vinegar or lemon. Actually, I would never think that, but I tried them and it's true. So where do you source black ants from? You can't go to your garden or that crack in your house that always seems the ants pour through and catch them in the little raid trap. You have to go to a place that has organic ant, and that was not cheap. These ants were as expensive as truffles or Gold by the wow. So I think that ultimately, if you're looking for quality oriented ingredients, most people are not looking for ants, I'll be honest with you. But if you're looking for quality ingredients, this is just one example. If you're looking for interesting, complex, forget about it. It's just as expensive in most cases.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:15:27]:
Well, exactly. And I like the fact that you said that it's a craft because it is a craft because you've been studying this for a long time and it is a skill set that we relish. And then I'm going to take that into a different angle, too. It's like you and I had this conversation before we got on a couple of weeks ago. So you're a bartender, you owned a bar, several bars. But as Joan mentioned, meetings and events. When we're in a hotel ballroom, we don't have you right. We have a hotel banquet server. How do we incorporate this level of complexity and even serving Spiritless, serving non alcoholic beverages that are already canned in the meetings industry? Because it's not the same as even the hotel front bar.

Derek Brown [00:16:24]:
Yeah, that's right. I mean, there are a number of ready to drink or RTD cocktails that are available. Spiritless makes some excellent ones. Mocktail Club is one that is also just amazing. And their Capri Spritz is one of my favorites. But overall, you can make fairly simple, easy drinks. And that's because there's all these great products now, right? So let's say that you wanted to have a bar and you have your banquet server, who the most they can do is highballs, right? Like, they're not going to be able to make a drink with ants in it. And bless them, they don't want to either. And the guests might not want it either in that setting. Right, right. So I get it. So making a gin and tonic, though, is easier than ever, right? Like, you can get Monday zero alcohol gin or Liars makes a non alcoholic gin and add some high quality tonic to it and a lime, and it's just as good as any gin and tonic. Really. So it's easier than ever to do it. Or you could get one of the many non alcoholic beers or wines. I mean, if people have tried athletic, they'll go like they'll try and go, what am I missing? Nothing in terms of the flavor. Obviously I'm missing maybe that psychoactive effect of alcohol, and I get that, but I don't want that right now. That's not what I'm after. And so it takes all the flavors there is wonderful. There's also all these non alcoholic wines, and really top level producers like Vinegut Needs from Rhinegao or Geesen from New Zealand are making de alcohol as wines. So the quality is just leapt from here to here. If you all remember, for those of you who do remember trying Odules or like, some of the other non alcoholic wines, which I won't name, which were not great, forget about those. They are what they are. But there's a new level of quality that's out there, and it's only getting better.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:18:28]:
That's awesome. That is really good to know and good for me as a person who wants to bring something to another party right at home or at an event. But I actually just had this idea. I'm like every event that I host, if I'm working for my client, I'm going to make sure that the hotel that I'm working with has a copy of this book and saying, we need to have some of these recipes on the bar. Right? Because it's just as important as low. Right.

Derek Brown [00:19:04]:
And Dry January is part of the people kind of, like, blend together. The sobriety this book is for, and really what I'm aiming for is towards people who are looking to reduce or eliminate their drinking because it's a habit or peer pressure or stress, but not necessarily because they're in recovery. I think that's a different level, which requires a different level of attention and care for me. And some of those people may be okay drinking nonalcoholic products, but ultimately this is for everybody, right? Anybody who wants to, for whatever reason, reduce their drinking or eliminate their drinking.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:19:43]:
Well, in that store that I went to in Minneapolis the other day, there were two people behind me, and I just talked to strangers and asked questions. I'm like, okay, so why are you all here? We're wondering if this movement or this store is for people who are sober. And one of the guys, he's like, here's my coin. And he's like, I've been sober for three years, and he walked out with six bottles of different things. But he did say he's like, I'm not going to buy the Spirit list because it tastes so much like this, right? Or whatever one it is. And we don't need to talk about Spiritless all the time, but their candle fashion tastes like their candle tastes like an old fashioned right? So he's not going to buy that one, but he's going to buy some other things. So I thought that was really interesting. All right, so one question that I want to have, and we've kind of circled around it, but what does Mindful mean when you're saying Mindful mixology?

Derek Brown [00:20:37]:
I think for a lot of so Mindful has taken on this sort of like this large category of being kind of like contemplative and aware of the moment and what you're doing. And I like that definition. I myself practice mindfulness and meditate and all of that because I think it's an important part of clearing our mind and being present. But really, what I think mindful means in this context is like, mind the gap in the subway in England, right. Just be aware of what you're doing. Those definitions kind of cross over at some point. But I mean, it in a lot looser way, really. It's mindful drinking itself is being aware of what you're drinking. Right. It's not prescriptive of what you should or shouldn't drink. It just means why do you drink? And if you know that why, then you're going to set the what and how. Right. So I think that mindful in that case is really just an awareness of what you're drinking and why, and I think everybody should go through that problem. And the end of that is not, I'll never drink again. For some people, it will be. For some people it won't be. I think it's, I know why I'm drinking. I know what I intend to drink. This is incredibly important in business settings and in meetings and events, too. Right. Because I've seen a lot of people, especially I used to teach these etiquette classes to law offices right, to their summer associates, because they'd come right out of college and they'd get hammered in front of one of the partners. And that would be the kind of, like, keep them down for a little while in the eyes of the partner. So I think in business and meetings, you have to be aware of how you're being perceived. And so I think drinking too much and if you're not paying attention, you don't even know how much alcohol is in something. You drink a couple of Manhattans and all of a sudden you're, whoa. That's not who you want to portray yourself as necessarily.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:22:45]:
Right? Exactly. All right. I want to take a quick second to say, hey, we're going to give away a free copy of the book signed by Derek. But how do we decide that we were going to do this? We're going to give it to a person who's tagged. Is that right?

Derek Brown [00:23:01]:
Whatever medium you think.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:23:04]:
Yeah. So whatever medium you're on. Because I don't know. Joan, if you're on Facebook, lynn's on LinkedIn, john's on LinkedIn, alex is on LinkedIn. So tag somebody that you think needs to hear this conversation for whatever reason, because they have a restaurant or bar or whatever bartender, and we'll pick a name from the people who are tagged to win a book. So I want to jump back to another story I heard when I was in Minneapolis was all about non alcoholic drinks and eating at Wanami as well. But they were describing this man who everybody thought was an alcoholic. But what he did is he had one or two drinks, and then he would act like he was drunk and everybody just so that he could somewhat feel like he fit in. And everybody really thought at one point that he was an alcoholic and they needed to have a conversation with him. He's like, no, I'm only having one, and then I'm just having soda and water. Right? Yeah.

Derek Brown [00:24:11]:
That's interesting.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:24:13]:
All right, Joan, go ahead and just tag someone in the group, in the eating, at a meeting, Facebook group, you can only tag people in the group, but if you go on to the link, if you go on to Thrive meetings and events, you can tag somebody there anyways. Okay. One of the other things, I keep picking the book up because I just hit my head with it, but I liked how you talked about the different kinds of ingredients that you can use and then the different types of drinks as well. And that was actually one of the last chapters of pulling it all Together. Can you talk about different kinds of ingredients and then different types of drinks that we're still looking to create, even if it's non alcoholic?

Derek Brown [00:24:59]:
Yeah, I mean, the interesting thing is that going back to that Jerry Thomas guide in that book, the first Bartender's guide, there was ten cocktails in the original one. Right, okay. And there was a number of temperance drinks, temperance being the word for non alcoholic back then. Right. So in the 19th century and 1862, this book was published. It had almost as many temperance drinks as it did cocktails. But there are a number of other drinks too, right? Like sours and highballs and punches and that sort of thing. And so this word cocktail has become inclusive of anything that has alcohol, or in this case, also non alcoholic. But there's lots of different types of cocktails or now, I guess, have become subcategories of it. So sour drinks, highballs, all of those are kind of important. And if you're throwing an event or have a hospitality space, you have to kind of have that different range of drinks. Some people, they want a sour, which an example would be a margarita or a daiquiri or something like that, a whiskey sour. People who want like a high ball, which is a very simple combination of a spirit and soda and then there's and so on and so forth. Sometimes people want just like an old fashioned style drink, which is the very original definition of a cocktail in print. It was in from 1806. We won't go too into detail on that. But it said Spirit sugar, water bitters. Right, which is actually my first book, what I wrote, called Spirit, Sugar, Water, Bitters. Also a great book. But I think that that became kind of harder to make for a while with non alcoholic spirits. But now you can. And so there are a number of products out there that can go well into that. So I guess ultimately, having a range of interesting drinks is important. It depends on the setting and then using a range of ingredients, some of which might be expensive, some of which might be a little less expensive. And it all evens out in the long run. I describe in my book a variety of ingredients you can use, from, like I said, like vinegar to nonalcoholic creative spirits. They have spirits out there, too, that are non alcoholic that have never existed before. Right. So there are analog ones, like bourbon analog, like Kentucky events four or Monday, not zero alcohol. Gin. And then you have ones like Coleno, right? C-A-L-E-N with the accent over at O that's made with, like, pineapple and ginger and it's kind of rummish, but it's also unique to itself. It goes off in a pina colada, but it's also pretty good sipping on its own with some soda water or something like that. So there's like a lot of different things out there, I think, right now. It's interesting. So I wrote this book in 2021, so a lot was happening then, right. But it was at the beginning of the non alcoholic kind of boon. Right, okay. And Camper English, who's a really great writer who has a blog called Alcademics, and you might know him because he.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:28:15]:
Has he's been on the show before.

Derek Brown [00:28:17]:
He's an amazing character. cocktailsafe.org, which is a really great website, but he started listing all of the spirits, non alcoholic spirits, that existed. And when I started falling, it was around 30 something. Right. And then by the time this book was in existence, it was like, I don't know, 80 or 90. I forget how many I said. Now it's over 160, I think they've grown so much. And what's interesting about that is that it's still like a tiny drop in the bucket compared to flavored vodka. But it's a lot of different choices. And I think that's really good for us and that's good for the consumers, from simple drinks to complex ones. There's just a lot out there to offer it.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:29:04]:
Well, there was one in here recipe. I think it had egg in it or something, right? And that's what I had Camper talking on a couple of years ago about allergens. And I should have him come back on, especially talking about this non alcoholic side of this, right? The cocktail side. But I'll give everybody that link, too. But yeah, he's so smart, and he just came out with a new book, too, now. Okay. There's a lot of terms out there. There's mocktail, there's nonalcoholic, there's low, zero proof or whatever. What do we use? How do we best describe it without making somebody feel like they're ordering a Shirley Temple?

Derek Brown [00:29:46]:
In the past, I used to be pretty inclusive and say, oh, well, whatever. I didn't like the word mocktail too much because I think it sounds like it's deriding. Somebody. But I think now it's only one phrase that works. It's non alcoholic cocktail. Right? I think I appreciate all the other ones. There's some cutesy ones. My partner Maria, she had a beverage program, and she called them immaculate concoctions, you know what I mean? So I think there's lots of fun ways to put it, and if that serves your program, I get it. But if you're making something that is meant to resemble an adult, sophisticated drink, a cocktail, then it should be called a non alcoholic cocktail. That is what I would argue now. And there is historical precedent too, because I mentioned the first time that the cocktail was mentioned or defined in print was in 18 six, right? It's called spirit sugar, water, bitters, which spirits is a key part of it. The first time it's mentioned is in 1798 in England in a paper called the Morning Gazetteer. And it does mention ginger, but it does not mention alcohol. And in fact, David Wonderich, a really great historian and writer, has suggested it may not have contained alcohol. So the word is ours. It belongs to non alcoholic and alcohol alike in any way. We've gotten to a point where we kind of understand, oat, milk is not actually milk, right? Sorry if I'm telling you this. And you're like, oh my God, really? Shocking, veggie burgers are not made of cow. So it's easy enough to say non alcohol cocktails. And it really makes people feel normal, I think, because they're like a non alcoholic cocktail. I don't have to use the cutesy name or dance around it or be like, is this zero something? And what does this phrase mean? Mocktail? I think it kind of like became the part of the vernacular, and probably worldwide it's the most recognized. So I do understand why people use it, but I would like it to kind of fade away eventually because I think that, again, it can feel like you're mocking somebody or even if it's just tied or associated to the sugary drinks of the past, you know what I mean? Because there was a time where you could order a mockdale and you'd get something that was just all of the juices at the bar combined.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:32:23]:
Well, yeah, and I tagged on Instagram, one of my favorite restaurant in Newburn, North Carolina, because they actually think they have it listed as non alcoholic beverages on their menu. And then I went down the street and I'm like, hey, do you have a mocktail? And they're like, do you want ocean spray cranberry juice or do you want tropicana orange juice? And I'm like, I'll just have a club soda with a line.

Derek Brown [00:32:46]:
Right? Good halal?

Tracy Stuckrath [00:32:48]:
No, thank you. Right? And I'm like, okay, so actually, maybe I should just go buy them a book too, because let's up this thing, right? And I don't know, do you have any statistics on how much I mean, I know you've talked about how many more spirits are in here, but upping it to help your revenue.

Derek Brown [00:33:10]:
Oh, absolutely, yeah, it's very clear that it'll add to your revenue. I mean, I don't have any specific statistics that I think would be relevant here. Obviously it depends on the place and each place can kind of define for themselves. But I do know this, if you don't have non alcoholic drinks, you're simply missing out. People are just not ordering right or they're ordering something, as we had mentioned, soda and lime and then you're missing that second drink or third drink, right. And there are people who are putting non alcoholic drinks on the menu and then they're still hiding at the bottom or putting it in a way that's not accessible or kind of embarrassing to order. That's the next level, right? That means that people see it, they know you have it, but in that circumstance they might feel awkward ordering. Now let's go back to that summer associate that's like going to apply to this law firm and wants to work with a job and the partner that's taking interest in them in that moment is drinking like a really nice scotch. And they go, what kind of mocktails do you have? Could you imagine how that feels in that moment for that person? Even if they're a very confident, self aware person, that's a straight that just feels odd, right? And so I think saying like, hey, what kind of non alcoholic cocktails do you have? Or let me see your list and oh, I would like this drink that's called the Ambassador or whatever the hell it's called. Interesting drink. I'll take that. I think that that is a different feeling. And so I do a lot of trainings and classes for people who want to implement nonalcoholic programs, whether it's for catering or bars, restaurants, hotels, and I tell them it's not enough just to put a non alcoholic menu cocktail on the menu or even make a good one. You have to now place it in a way I think that people can see it. You have to price it in a way and you have to train your staff when they interact with the guest not to belittle them, right. So people say, I'll take this cocktail and they say, you know, that has no alcohol in it. You go, well, no, of course I know it has. That's what I ordered from the menu. It says non alcoholic, right. So I think you have to go down the whole line to make sure that it's something that works and then that's when you're really going to profit off of it because people want it, it's out there, they need it. Dry Junior is a great example. Whoever was already had their program set up and we're tending to people, their bars are full. For those people who kind of.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:35:54]:
Put.

Derek Brown [00:35:55]:
It on Haphazardly at the end, no surprise that your bars or restaurants are not as full.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:36:03]:
Well, yeah. I mean, especially if you're a restaurant. Bring them in, they're going to order the food, and then they're going to add this extra thing onto the menu. And it actually reminds me of a dinner experience that I had comparing two dinner experiences. I was at one restaurant in Vegas and ten appetizers, and not a single one of them was gluten free. And I think only three items out of the entire 50 things was gluten free. And then I go to Greenville, South Carolina, and nine out of the ten appetizers were gluten free. And my best friend is like, you don't know what to order, do you? And I'm like, no, I don't. And just think about me being able to add on that additional thing to my bill. I mean, yes, it's coming out of my pocket, but it's going to the restaurant bill, but it's also going to the server's pocket with a higher tip.

Derek Brown [00:36:49]:
That's right. Yeah. Ultimately, it benefits everybody involved. Right. This is not an opportunity to fleece people. This is an opportunity to create something that is beneficial for everybody. So the way I say it is everyone's invited to sit at the bar. It's that simple. And in doing so, I think that you're making people feel more welcome. You're making more money off of it. You are supporting a healthy culture. I mean, it's all just nothing but wins, right?

Tracy Stuckrath [00:37:22]:
Joan had an interesting comment down here. She said, AA has huge meetings. Why not work with whoever manages their meetings to ensure they are aware?

Derek Brown [00:37:33]:
This goes back to, I think, what we were talking about before, and it's a great idea, except I think that recovery is such a personal process, right. Everybody who identifies as an alcoholic, which we call alcohol use disorder, substance use disorder, they have their own path to recovery. And for some people, it means that no alcohol at all, they can't be around it. It's going to trigger them. It's going to put them in a situation where their life changes rapidly and for the worse. And so there's other people, like you mentioned, the person who's in line who drinks and can have some of it and feels comfortable with it. And then there's Kosher, people who like myself, who I identify as someone who has difficulty with drinking. I did have difficult with drinking, so I put it aside for a while, and I can still drink non alcoholic beers and wines and stuff, and I feel perfectly comfortable in that scenario. It's just such a personalized thing. So going to an AA meetings where there's people with all this, and unfortunately, I think might put some people in jeopardy. So I try to stay away from that. I try to stay away from making this about sobriety. Sometimes they call sober ish, which I can understand, but it's not about sobriety, right?

Tracy Stuckrath [00:38:51]:
No, I like that. And it is everybody's personal path to whatever they're doing. I want to get back to a mindful when you were talking about the mindful definition, too, and wanting to know what in your cocktails, what you're drinking, because I think that goes also back to people wanting to know what's in their food. They really want to have this conversation about knowing what's in it. And I thought it was interesting looking at some of when I was at that store last week in Minneapolis, is that they're actually showing the ingredients, and they're showing the calories on it and everything, which is not necessarily what liquor companies aren't required to do.

Derek Brown [00:39:31]:
That right.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:39:32]:
And I really liked that about these non alcoholic beverages.

Derek Brown [00:39:36]:
That's right. Yeah. They're definitely showing more of what they're offering. They list the ingredients in it, and sometimes those are just, like, natural flavors, and that can be confusing, but ultimately, you get more of a window into what you're drinking. I think it's really important yeah, for food, too, obviously. I think that's the premise of what you do. And wonderful work, by the way. Thank you for doing it, Tracy. But I think that definitely we should know what we're drinking because people are more aware of their sensitivities, they're more aware of their allergies, and they're more aware of what's good for them or, conversely, what doesn't work for them. So I think that people should have more choices. Ultimately, when I talk about mindful mixology and I talk about mindful drinking, it's also about offering a range of choices. I personally don't eat meat, but I have no problem with people eating meat. Obviously, I don't drink. I'm totally fine with people drinking. I think that's the culture I want to live in, where we all just sit next to each other and have a wonderful meal and drink, and we can all be there together.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:40:49]:
Well, it's funny that you say that, because when I come around, people are like, oh, I'm eating meat. And I'm like, Tracy's here. I'm meetings meat. I'm like, I eat meat. I don't care. It's not about what you eat or not eat. That's your choice. And I'm not here to judge you. I'm just here like you to make sure that everybody has a seat at the table with something that's or the bar with something that's not going to kill them, not going to offend them and satiate satiates them. Right.

Derek Brown [00:41:16]:
People just don't want to feel judged. And I get that you hate it. I hate it. Everybody hates to feel judged, so I think that's fair. If somebody's being overly judgmental, that can be very annoying and sometimes worse. But I think ultimately, by opening up the options, it's not about judgments. It's in fact about just bringing more people in.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:41:37]:
Right, exactly. Joan has another, if you haven't noticed. She's quite engaged, which I love. Does safety come into the discussion of alcohol consumption? I'm going to say yes. I can throw out some stories, and I do like the idea of the adding them to the airline. So Delta Airlines, which I fly all the time, get some of these brands on the plane versus just having the club soda with the line, I'll say.

Derek Brown [00:42:04]:
It, and maybe it'll sound a bit rude, but you're just playing. Ridiculous if you don't have a non alcoholic selection on a plane, because people do want interesting things to drink, but alcohol in a lot of situations can be potentially problematic, I think. I don't want to dance around that. I know that there are health issues. There's no amount of alcohol that's healthy, right? You can live a healthy lifestyle that incorporates alcohol. Right? So no problem there. Not everything we do is healthy. Ice cream is not healthy. That's okay. Eat ice cream sometimes, it's all right. Just don't eat it for breakfast every morning. That's bad for you.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:42:42]:
Or as Weight Watchers tells you, not to have more than a half a cup. Like, who doesn't have more? Whatever.

Derek Brown [00:42:48]:
I stopped buying pints because it was impossible for me to stop. I would go, I'm going to eat a quarter of this Pint. I'm going to eat a half of this Pint. I'm going to eat three quarters. And then it was done, and I was like, I literally just consumed a pint of ice cream anyway.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:43:02]:
Exactly.

Derek Brown [00:43:02]:
That's my issue. That's not your issue out there in Radio Land. I'm sorry. I'm not telling you not to eat ice cream, for God's sakes. It's wonderful. And alcohol can be wonderful, too. So all I'm suggesting is that I don't want to dance around the fact that there are health issues with alcohol. And I think that's a wonderful point that she made. And I definitely would encourage people and airlines especially, to think about that when they're creating menus. How can you support people's vision of their own health?

Tracy Stuckrath [00:43:35]:
And I think, well, gosh, it would help a lot of crazy people on airplanes sometimes, right? Here, by the way, have this one. Okay, so I want to bring up another chapter in here. Does that come out right? If we don't use alcohol, then what do we use? Right? And that was really kind of those ingredients that you were talking about earlier, like the aquafaba. Are you using tinctures? Is that right?

Derek Brown [00:44:06]:
Sure. Tinctures are usually associated with alcohol because their base of it is alcohol. But there are glycerin based tinctures, right? So glycerin and water, you can capture the same flavors in. So a great company out there is called all the Bitter by Ian and Carly Blessing. They are formerly worked at French Laundry, really great people, and they've created these nonalcoholic bitters that are, you could call compound tinctures, aromatic orange. And New Orleans, which is like pey, shows bitters. So there are really great tinctures out there that can be used, but some have alcohol, and some are glycerin based. Now, an interesting thing about bitters in general and tinctures, sometimes you're just adding a couple of drops to it. And so the actual definition of nonalcoholic is 0.5% alcohol or less. Okay. In some of these cases, there is a small amount of alcohol. And so 0.5% is just to be clear, you can find that much in a ripe banana or a piece of bread in some cases. So it's not that you're getting hammered on 0.5%. That's a very hard thing to do. But it does have, in some cases, have some. So when it's defined as non alcoholic, it means 0.5% or less. If it's alcohol free, that means there's no zero alcohol in it.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:45:35]:
Okay, right. That's a great distinction. Yeah.

Derek Brown [00:45:39]:
And so I think it's fair if you're adding a couple of drops of something. If it's five to 8oz and you're adding three drops of something in it, well, that's going to be a trace amount. I mean, I would encourage a person, especially if they're serving a professional environment, to be concerned about what it might show up as in terms of the ABV, which is the alcohol by volume, but it's probably not an issue for most people. Now, I work with Epicurious to create an alcohol by volume or ABV calculator that you can go on Epicurious and you can put in a cocktail because it's very confusing. A Manhattan, for instance, has generally rye whiskey or bourbon, in some cases, sweet vermouth and bitters. Right. So a person be like, that's one drink, right? No, that's almost three drinks, ultimately, and it's a very high ABV. So it depends, obviously, on how much the serve is, but in some cases, it can be a lot. So determining the alcohol by volume and then finding out the volume is useful if you're trying to figure out how much you're consuming, it can be very confusing. And I realize for some people, they're just like little. I have to do mouth to drink.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:47:02]:
No, thank you.

Derek Brown [00:47:05]:
We made it easy for you. There's a calculator. Just type in the ingredients in the calculator and you can figure it out.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:47:10]:
All right. And I just actually found that link and posted it in the chat. So I know that came up on Facebook and YouTube, but I'll add it to the other ones later. So the future of ABV spirits category, we've kind of talked about that. It's huge. I mean, it's gone, what, from 30 to over 100 in the span of two years? Three years, right.

Derek Brown [00:47:34]:
And non alcoholic wines increased by 20%. And Athletic Brewing Company is listed as, I think, under the top 30 craft brewers in the United States. Guess what that's halal craft brewers with alcohol too. So there are in fact, it's growing enormously.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:47:53]:
Wow, that's huge. Just take advantage. If that market is growing, then it just makes sense that a hotel or a catering company adds these to their repertoire on their menus. Okay. Just based on an experience that I had last year getting these into a hotel. How do they order them? Where does the food and beverage or the beverage director order them from their regular distributor? Or do they order them from Sodexo or UNFI? How do they get them?

Derek Brown [00:48:34]:
Yeah, this one's not easy. This is not an easy answer. Unfortunately, there are some companies out there that are starting to distribute them nationwide. Some of those are kind of expensive. So right now what I would encourage and when I consult on and off premise hospitality and spirits and so forth, what I suggest is go through and try to find the least expensive. But the good news is that there are in fact lots of places that you can order them from right now. So what I would encourage people to do is to find the beverage they like. And the easiest way to do that right now probably is to go to one of these great nonalcoholic bottle shops or non alcoholic bars that are starting to pop up and ask questions or follow people like me who are constantly posting about what we like and don't like. Find that bottle, go to that site and ask the person, where does this wholesale for? Some people do it directly. Some people do it through companies like Busan, B-O-I-S-S-O-N. Some people do it through conventional distributors like RNDC Republic National. So it is a mixed bag. I hope that becomes easier over time for people. But the food news is that, again, you can order it with very little restrictions.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:50:02]:
Okay.

Derek Brown [00:50:02]:
You don't have that three tier system in all cases.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:50:05]:
And is it regulated by tobacco, alcohol, or who's it regulated by?

Derek Brown [00:50:12]:
FDA?

Tracy Stuckrath [00:50:12]:
Is it FDA? Okay. The non alcoholic bottle shops. I mean, in my town of north, can I just go find them in a regular liquor store? And in North Carolina we have ABC stores.

Derek Brown [00:50:30]:
Yeah. Is that more of like a control state? Is that what it is? Please get rid of those. Gosh, they're so terrible. So I don't know what to do in those. In a lot of cases they might have some, but in some cases they say they can't have any non alcoholic products in those. And so you might have find them at your supermarket, like Whole Foods might have it.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:50:54]:
That's 2 hours away.

Derek Brown [00:50:55]:
Yeah. So it can be a little bit of a challenge. In that case, I might say go to and I don't say this lightly because I don't like pushing people to this, but go to a website called Amazon.com. Amazon. And that's where you can find it. Again, I don't want to put more money in a billionaire's pocket, but at the same time it's super convenient. So I do it sometimes.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:51:16]:
Right? Yeah, exactly. And Julie Oster just laughed at that. But she also did say earlier in here she's been on a healthy meal plan and lifestyle since September and was nervous about people commenting on what she was eating, feeling judged, and those thoughts have gone away because I'm doing this for me. That's great, and 100% agree. And even our friend and Julie, our friend Kathy, who eats gluten free people are like, oh, what do you eat? What do you not eat? Don't ask the questions. Just give me the food. Right. Or give me the drink. Right?

Derek Brown [00:51:54]:
Yeah, well, I think that's the point, right. We're in a culture, unfortunately, where you don't drink or you don't eat something and invite somebody to comment about who you are, what your past is like, and in some cases, what your body is like. And so I really hope to get past that. I can really feel for that situation, and I hope that people out there listen and take this to heart, is that a person's personal decisions about what they eat and drink are their own damn business.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:52:22]:
Right? Exactly. Okay, so I have two final questions for you since I just put your website up here, positive Damage, Incorporated. Please tell us what you do under Positive Damage.

Derek Brown [00:52:33]:
I don't know. I have no idea. I do this I talk about no and low alcohol cocktails and mindfulness.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:52:41]:
And you just got a degree.

Derek Brown [00:52:43]:
Yeah, I've got a number of certificates and wellness and positive psychology and that sort of thing, because I think that really feeds into everything. But I guess ultimately what I do is I teach people how to drink, and I teach bars, restaurants, hotels, liquor stores, which products that they can carry, how they can carry them, what's the best way to get them out there in the world? I'm sort of a pie Piper for this stuff, known low alcohol cocktails. And for me, it's about being out there and creating more choices for people. And so there's a lot of different things. In some cases, I might do events, special events. I might do talks about mindful drinking or known low alcohol cocktails. And so I do a lot of different things. But I guess you could really maybe I'm not selling myself well. One thing I don't do is I'm not a good salesperson. So let me just put it in three categories. I do consulting classes and content. Does that make it easier?

Tracy Stuckrath [00:53:39]:
Okay, that makes it easier. Yeah. Okay. And actually, you know what? Let's do one. Let's do a cocktail class.

Derek Brown [00:53:45]:
Yeah.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:53:46]:
All right. So you and I can chat about that online, and I'll let everybody know about that. And Joan just coming in in here, she's like, I'm a non drinker and have been for years. Just saying you just say nothing. We don't have to say anything to what they say. Agree. Julie, thank you so much for saying that. Derek, the last question I have, and this is what I ask all of my guests, is what does a safe, sustainable, and inclusive food and beverage experience look like to you or feel like to you?

Derek Brown [00:54:19]:
It gets down to the root. Word of hospitality. It gets down to the root where it's really about two people at the heart of it, you and the other person. And so if you welcome somebody in your home, how would you treat them? And I think that that's the way I look at it. When it's a bar, restaurant, hotel, whatever, how do I treat that person? And if that person is different from me, if they have different taste, customs, habits, things that they like, things that they don't like, I'm going to do my best to accommodate them. Now I get it. If you have a specific theme, like a burger joint, sometimes it's hard to service vegetarians, too. As much as I love gluten free buns, I do realize that there's a mixed quality out there. So each person can make their choice on what their stand is and what they can and can't do. So I do sympathize for. But if I'm welcoming somebody into my home, if I'm trying to care for somebody, I'm going to do everything within my power to make sure that they feel comfortable, happy, healthy. And so an inclusive environment has to start from that sort of mindset, from that attitude.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:55:30]:
I love that. Thank you very much. I appreciate that. Thank you for joining us. You're welcome. We had a very lively discussion here. It was awesome. Thanks, everybody. Joan. Julie. John. Who else did I miss in here? Everybody that was on here. So, Alex, appreciate it for being here. And like I said, if you tag somebody wherever you're watching this, derek and I will choose somebody on Friday. We'll choose somebody on Friday to get a signed copy of his book Mindful Mixology. And as he showed it, I've also got all these tags in my book of things that I love. So, everybody, until next time, stay safe and eat well and drink well. And next week, we have Derek's and my mutual a friend or on the show talking with one of the specific brands called Spirit List. So we'll be back here next week. Thank you, everybody. Bye.