121: Leading the Movement Toward Greater Transparency in Wine Labeling

Tracy Stuckrath [00:00:57]:
I'm actually here live at the Natural Products Expo in Anaheim, California. This be reporting all week on what I see new and different and innovative around sustainable food and beverage products that we can serve at our meetings and events. But all this month, March is Women's History month and yesterday was International Women's Day. And I am bringing to you this month 10 women that are doing really cool, fun, innovative things in food and beverage. And I'm excited to introduce you to today to Amanda Thompson. She is the CEO and founder of B Corporation Certified, B Corp Certified Thompson and Scott and creator of Naughty Alcohol free Organic Sparkling Chardonnay and Rose with Quality de alcoholized still launching imminently sold in more than 45 countries after only launching in 2019. Just before the pandemic, both Nadi and Amanda are taking the drinks industry by storm. Everybody help me welcome Amanda Thompson.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:01:59]:
Hi, Amanda.

Amanda Thomson [00:02:00]:
Hi. Lovely to see you. Thank you for having me.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:02:03]:
Thank you for being here and everybody. She's in London, I'm in California. So we've got this long times in but we're still connecting. Love technology. So Amanda, we. Oh, we had this great conversation just before we came on. I wish we'd recorded it and so everybody could hear that too. All the secrets, all of our secrets.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:02:23]:
So you are, from everything I was reading about you and awards that you've won, you're leading the movement toward a greater transparency in wine labeling. And that's one of the things that we were talking about before we went on air. So tell us more about wine labeling in general and then we're going to get into Nadi.

Amanda Thomson [00:02:43]:
Well, what had shocked me because I came originally through the alcohol space. I created my own champagne brand before I transitioned into alcohol free and I studied wine. So that was my background. I could not believe, tracy, that in 2022, a breakdown, a full Breakdown of ingredients wasn't listed on a wine bottle. That kind of blew my mind. When you think about legal medicines, every microcosm of what we're eating in stores. I was really shocked that that was possible. And certainly on my side of the pond, I'm London based and I come from, I suppose, what we call the old wine world.

Amanda Thomson [00:03:19]:
France, Italy, the history that that brings. The wine industry itself, truthfully, was not desperate to innovate in that way. They really weren't. And I'm putting that in a very polite way. It's interesting that over here, the eu, you may or may not know in the us, Britain's gone independent, we've come out of the eu, but the EU has been working hard on legislation that I think will make accountability much clearer in labeling. But also the problem we've got is so much wine is traveling around the world and each has its own fixation with what I've been surprised to see very different elements of what we should be saying on the back label. And just to be clear to everybody, I'm talking about the back labels. So a lot of you might just be focused with brands on the front label.

Amanda Thomson [00:04:08]:
I'm talking about the back label that a lot of us perhaps don't bother to read. But of course, if you've got any allergic issues, for example, you know, sometimes light, sometimes more serious, you will have no idea whether there's something that you can or can't be drinking. And I think that's pretty damn crazy.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:04:26]:
That is crazy and very scary. And Camper English, who I interviewed last year, he's all about creating safety around allergies and alcohol. But it really is mind blowing. And people are like, don't want to tell the secret. I don't want to know your recipe. I just want to know if this is in it, you know?

Amanda Thomson [00:04:43]:
Absolutely. And I think you've hit the nail on the head that perhaps we've been able to hide behind mystique, and I am a fine wine lover, do recognize that it's an art. I'm obsessed with brilliant winemakers. That said, it really needs to have an ingredients list. We need to know what's in our bottle. I mean, how can I offer you a drink? Can you say to me, what's in here? And I say, actually, I'm not going to tell you. I mean, and I think, I think most consumers, we just kind of go, oh, it's wine. That's what we do, right? And then we go, actually, if we have got even two minutes to sort of Lift back the curtain.

Amanda Thomson [00:05:20]:
It isn't just wine. It's going to have all manner of other things in there, too, even if it's organic, even if it's natural, whatever natural means, it has different definitions in different contexts. And so I think without that clarity, I just think that it's not appropriate in the modern world. And most. The younger generation, the modern consumer, 100% agrees. I think it's those who historically have closed their mind. And you could argue, I mean, justice robinson.com, which is Johnson Robinson, is one of our most famous wine critics. She did a really interesting piece of the Financial Times in London recently.

Amanda Thomson [00:05:57]:
It was published, and she was saying, look, you know, maybe there are some makers who just don't want to tell you. And I think we have to really recognize that if we're buying a very, very, very cheap bottle, then it will be a ton of sugar, it will be a ton of chemicals. The only way to make really cheap wine palatable, exactly like processed food, is to chuck in the sugar, the really cheap sugar, not organic sugar, just nasty sugar you might not even want in your tea, and then the chemicals exactly like processed foods. So you also have to be aware that in wine, really, you generally are getting what you pay for when it comes to the supermarket stuff.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:06:43]:
That's really interesting. And I'm going to. I'm going to. Before we get into the. My next question that I have, I just want to let everybody know you worked for the BBC in, you know, and you changed ships, jumped ship and went into this, you know, and so you learned this very quickly, you know, and so tell everybody a little bit about why you jumped ship of being in the media world to come into this wine world.

Amanda Thomson [00:07:09]:
It's strange. I used to be the one asking the questions. It's unusual to be the ones answering them now, running a business. Champagne was my buzz, Tracy. I was in the arts space, so I was an art obsessive. Film, fashion, music, theater. And back in the day, before social media, as I tell my daughter, we used to work hard and play hard. It's not at all recommended now in the corporate world that, you know, champagne was my buzz.

Amanda Thomson [00:07:35]:
And often we would be staying up all night reporting, you know, makeup and hair in the morning, back on air, you know, again, these were the old days. And I started to really become obsessed with what was in my bottle. And I started to recognize that not only were not all brands of champagne created equal, you know, when it came to the aesthetic and the taste, but also I was really interested in the Sugar angle and what sugar was doing to wine and the fact that I didn't really know how much sugar was being added apart from what I was tasting. And at this point I wasn't trained in wine tasting and that really started the seed of this idea. Could I create my own brand based on being as pure as possible, cutting as much sugar where possible, but still retaining the balance? Could I also work with organic grapes? Could I really stay well away from chemicals that I wouldn't want written on a label? And those were really all of the drivers that led me to move my family to Paris. Had a few credit cards. I mean, I left my career behind. My husband luckily was in a career where he could move to France and I put my children in school there and I studied for the first ever wine diploma actually at the Cordon Bleu school in Paris.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:08:52]:
That's interesting. And then, and then how many years later did you create Naughty?

Amanda Thomson [00:08:57]:
Well, I came back in 2013 and I wasn't going to sell snow to the Eskimos and try and try and launch a champagne in Paris. So I thought, well, London's a bit more entrepreneurial in my mind, so hopefully, you know, if I can make it in London. I had no idea how close the wine world was at that point to new to new Visions. That's a whole other podcast probably. But I transitioned to alcohol free as you mentioned in the intro, just pre Pandemic. So that would be 2019. We just started working with Naughty in London. We were just placing it in some rubbing hotels, bars and restaurants.

Amanda Thomson [00:09:35]:
Then the pandemic hit and like every business startups through to corporates, you know, you have that panic moment, what the hell am I going to do? And then I recognized like a classic entrepreneur. We had to double down on the opportunity. So I was online on my Mac a really unhealthy amount. But I started to see that there was this incredible global community of alcohol free lovers that wanted to hear my story and wanted to swap their histories and what they were doing with me. And so that really was how the buzz, I suppose the touch paper was lit. There was a wonderful guy called Marcus Salazar who had a platform called for all drinks and he ran an alcohol free festival where we started talking about all the brilliant alcohol free brands that were out there. And I gotta say, new Americans were just incredible for me. I mean America embraced my brand really early on.

Amanda Thomson [00:10:34]:
And then the media went nuts. We had this incredible buzz with the New York Times, with the LA Times, Washington Post, NBC, you name pure pr, none of this was paid for. And the buzz really just was the train had left the station, it just went crazy. And so I recognized that if I could just really, you know, work that crazy amount, spread the word, there was a real concrete opportunity to launch the brand globally, despite the sad situation so many people were in around the world with the pandemic.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:11:08]:
So I want to go back to one thing. Over the weekend, I was with a friend who's vegan and she, I'm like, hey, do you pay attention to your wine? She came over to my friend's house to drink wine and I'm like, delphine, do you, do you pay attention to the labeling and what's in your wine? And if it's vegan or not, she's like, it's grapes, shouldn't it just be vegan? And I'm like, no, I'm like, here, check barnivore.com right? So tell people about the vegan aspect of wine.

Amanda Thomson [00:11:37]:
The vegan aspect is really interesting because we were the first mainstream brand certainly in the UK to make a fuss about the fact that we were vegan. And we were like, we're vegan certified, we're vegan friendly, we aren't using any animal derived products in our fining. And that's essentially the filtration process. So you know, before a wine's filtered, you'll know, Tracy. But just for everybody who might not, you're getting all the bits out essentially. So any of the matter that has come from the grape, you're fining it to make it a nice clear liquid. If anyone drinks natural wine, you'll know sometimes it's a bit cloudy and there's a few bits in it. But for most wine, you're taking those bits of matter out.

Amanda Thomson [00:12:18]:
And historically, I mean, in the old days of red wine, bull's blood was used fish guts. So things that you 100% would not want on your, on your wine label, vegan or not. More recently, egg, albumin and dairy derived products, which is the relevant part for the vegan element. And so a lot of the vegan community obviously may be quite relaxed and say that, oh, well, I eat a bit of Parmesan, I ate a bit of gelatin, that's fine. For those who aren't vegan, that's fine too. Just saying you're a vegan certified wine is just clarifying for those who really do want to know and do care and are following a stricter vegan diet, that we're not using any animal derived products in the filtration of our wine. And that really started the ball rolling. So we became known for being a very vegan, friendly wine in that aspect.

Amanda Thomson [00:13:12]:
And of course a lot of carnivores would go, well, why do I care? And we're like, it doesn't matter that you don't care. It's about, about those people in the vegan community, you know, that actually do care. And that's what's been so interesting to me about a lot of those markers, I think, because a lot of people in the wine world historically are a bit older. And I say that as a woman who's proud of her age because it goes back to your original question about just being as open and honest as you can be about what is in the bottle. I know I was going down the road of saying age is just a number. I've always thought it's a state of mind. I'm 50, proud of it. But it does tend historically in the wine world, certainly at a higher echelons to be a lot of older men.

Amanda Thomson [00:13:57]:
It's just the way it is. It's just a fact. You know, it is changing, but not fast enough. And so you do get a lot of people who go, well, why do I care? And of course they may not care and that's absolutely fine. But the huge gap in the market was for those that did. And that was how we hit that vegan community right across the world with everyone going, oh my God, naughty's a vegan wine. And it enabled us to start the conversation about which animal derived products are used in wine. So it's just all about that openness from my perspective.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:14:31]:
Well, and that goes to the question that I posed to you before we came on is that I recently met a wine influencer who's like, I don't understand who the market is for. You know, this wine is for. Because for somebody who's in the sober community, do they even want to drink something that tastes like wine or beer or whatever because they're sober? Or is it, you know, is it just for dry? January, right? Is it?

Amanda Thomson [00:14:57]:
So it's, it's so funny. I mean, I do spend my life occasionally, more than occasionally, having those conversations. And for me it's a classic close minded attitude for those who aren't open to innovation and are probably a bit scared themselves that some element of their history is about to get blown apart. Which of course is not the plan at all. For me, the great analogy is what's happened in the craft beer world. An alcohol free beer and Bill Shufelt an athletic beer over on your side of the pond is obviously you know, the trailblazer there. And you've got so many great alcohol free craft beers. I mean, you know, we could spend a long time listing them all out and play a game.

Amanda Thomson [00:15:36]:
There are so many now coming on board and following in athletics footsteps. And I think what had happened with wine was it's not easy to make really good alcohol free wine, but then it's not easy actually to make great alcohol free beer. It's just that the means of production in the drinks business are generally again controlled by older men. And I think that they probably just had that sort of arrogant, closed minded attitude like, oh, you know, alcohol free has been catered for. I mean, anyone who's not drinking wine, they can have a Coca Cola or a water or something else equally sugary and non celebratory and slightly depressing. And so, you know, it may not be for him and it probably isn't. And if he's happy to drink a lot of wine, you know, he should be my guest. But there is also a bit of a dark but here, which is whichever way we look at it.

Amanda Thomson [00:16:28]:
And I say this as somebody who comes from the fine wine world, loves fine wine, recognizes brilliant winemakers as artists. So that's, you know, my caveat putting it out there. We cannot pretend it's a health food. We cannot pretend that we need it in our lives. You know, there is no scientist in 2022 who will tell us there's been a few sort of fake stories about how we need it for our heart and whatnot, but you know, we cannot really create that sort of scientific proof. And so sadly in the pandemic, alcoholism was on the rise and you had this sort of slightly sad dichotomy where a lot of people were turning to alcohol as a crutch to find a bit more balance in their lives. But which going back to the cynical guy's question, who's it for? It's really improved across the last two years. To me, it is for pretty much everybody apart from those who are close minded because we have a consumer base that stretches very far and wide across the world.

Amanda Thomson [00:17:36]:
So you touched on the super community. Now we have some incredible sober fans in America and the uk. Now for those who are triggered by alcohol, they would have their own reasons then for not drinking naughty and we would never be trying to seduce them into drinking it. Let's be clear. But a lot of the sober community are loving naughty. Those fine wine lovers who recognize for health Reasons they perhaps shouldn't be drinking as much as they're drinking, which is pretty much all of us who are smart these days, pregnant women, people driving, those who don't drink for religious reasons, young people who are driving the movement, they're drinking a lot less. Those who are living and recognizing that one false move drunk online could cost them their career. I mean, the list goes on and on and on.

Amanda Thomson [00:18:25]:
Sports people, we work with many sports people who, you know, just don't drink a drop. I mean, for me, the transition from the champagne world to the alcohol free world has blown my mind in terms of recognizing how broad the opportunity is and how it was almost a gap waiting for me to fill it. And now I'm delighted that we have what I suppose it's fair to call competition, which is some lovely alcohol free winemakers coming in. There's some great ones in the US now because it was really me single handedly talking about premiumizing this category. And luckily I found a board member of Amber the Not. Hang on, how does that the acronym the Alcohol free. No, it's Amber Alcohol. I should know this.

Amanda Thomson [00:19:14]:
I'm going to get told off for it anyway. Adult Non Alcoholic Beverage Association. Marcus, don't tell me off. Adult Non Alcoholic Beverage Association. Amber A N B A. I was lucky enough to be invited as the only British to be on the board. And we're really trying to shape that education piece as all of the alcohol free founders come together like they have historically in the brewing world to really make sure that all of the misnomers about brilliant premium non alcoholic beverages are blown out the water and we can really allow the cynics to have a taste and blow their minds as well.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:19:56]:
Well, and we need to do that because in general, I mean, as a meeting planner who I went to an event a couple of weeks ago and one of the hotels, you know, has their daily happy hour, right? And they give you a pass to go down to, hey, here's, here's your free drink for the happy hour. And I went down. And I'm like, well, what are my options? And they're like, well, you can have beer, wine. And I'm like, well, what about a mocktail? They're like, you can have a Shirley Temple. I'm like, what? I'm like, my option for a mocktail is a Shirley Temple. And I couldn't even get a bottle of water. It was soda, it was beer and wine, and that was it. And I'm like, okay, we need to open up this market.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:20:39]:
And because not Every one of your guests drinks alcohol, right. And they don't want to drink that soda. So let's, you know, whether it's cynical or whether it's lack of education of what there's out there, how do we get them to bring that in? And is it their distributors that don't even know anything about it? Right. Yeah, I think so.

Amanda Thomson [00:21:01]:
I think you've raised a brilliant point.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:21:03]:
And then one of them said that, oh, well, we don't have enough demand for it. Well, okay, so meeting planners, we need to start demanding it.

Amanda Thomson [00:21:12]:
Right, Brilliant. I think you've hit the nail on the head. I think in the hospitality world's defense, we all know much of it has been ravaged by the pandemic. And I think what did happen was the world moved on so fast with premium non alcoholic beverages in America, in the UK and even many, many other countries. The fact that we're now setting in over 45. So I think there's a lot of catching up to do. So I think there's that catch up to do. There's, you know, founders like mine and the Amber Group.

Amanda Thomson [00:21:44]:
We've got to educate brilliant change makers like you in the meeting space and your world, the more you demand. And I think it's about people just sharing the conversation. And it's also importantly because I did a whole piece with the Times in London about procurement the other day for International Women's Day. It's about the important people who can make the decisions asking procurement or really politely forcing procurement to have those more innovative, forward facing, brilliant, premium, alcohol free options. Because ultimately, you know, probably everybody's overworked and you know, everybody's got there. We just buy the same old, same old on rotation. So it takes someone, doesn't it, to really create a quite dramatic shift to say, oh God, yeah, actually, well, they won't get the contract for the meeting unless they've got. I mean, I always think the way to create change is the bottom line.

Amanda Thomson [00:22:48]:
And I think, you know, I was talking with the Times about quotas and you know, I laugh because there was somebody argued against me, a captain of industry and he, you know, he still, no, I don't think quotas the way I said, hang on a second, we've had unofficial quotas forever. You're not telling me that you're not going to have incredible innovative brands. If you open up your procurement process to just 1% of female founded businesses, you're missing out on your bottom line because the consumer will start to vote with their feet and they will Start to demand brands that are front facing, B core certified, put sustainability at the heart, have a female founder at the helm. You're going to really miss out on that. So I think if we bring the bottom line into this conversation, that's when you can really create change. I think polite conversation just isn't creating enough movement.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:23:41]:
Well, and that's a really good point because it is. We have to. Somebody yesterday at the Natural Products Expo said you can't tell somebody to just change their job. Right? You can't force them to change it. But if you start, tell them to think about the policies, you know, we need to make changes in our policies. We need to change policy. You know, changes in our practices, make them think about it that way. So you're not kind of forcing them to make the change or making them think differently about how we do things.

Amanda Thomson [00:24:09]:
Things.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:24:09]:
It's still hard, but we can still, you know, don't say, hey, you've got to do this now. Make them think about, well, if we do this, we're adding this extra bottom line to our opportunities, right? And then the food allergy world has a humongous opportunity to add more to the bottom line. The non alcoholic. Especially when like 30% of people don't drink alcohol.

Amanda Thomson [00:24:31]:
It's insane that wine just was not catered for, isn't it? It's insane. And I guess like beer, you know, you've long had the opportunity to have that alcohol free beer alongside your corporate, often men, women, whatever. But you know, historically, often the gender breakdown is that more men will drink beer. That's a fact. You know, I know it's not fashionable to talk about gender in such clean lives, but really sparkling wine is drunk more by women historically and bare men. And I think there's also that factor when you've got the male gatekeepers who are like, oh, we've catered for that, we've got alcohol, free beer, you know, that's done. And of course therein lies another sort of barrier to entry. And probably because, I mean, you Americans are making a massive cultural sort of stereotype, but you're much better about being sort of, you know, politely asking for things.

Amanda Thomson [00:25:24]:
Us Brits are terrible. Oh, you know, I don't want to bother anybody. We sort of talk around everything, oh gosh, well, I'll just have a Shirley Temple or a water. You know, it needs, it needs people to be much more upfront and say, well, I'm here, I've driven. What about if I've driven? You know, you want me to drink and drive. I mean, sometimes I think we've got to get harder messages out there to get that change, you know.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:25:47]:
Right.

Amanda Thomson [00:25:47]:
Because I think that, you know, a few of us politely asking for it isn't going to do, you know, is not going to work fast enough. But I think you're right. When people recognize the policies behind things, that's when you get the change and it's really the leadership. So what I try and do, the way I can leverage a deal really quickly is if I can have a conversation with a leader who can make the decisions. It's when you mess around in the middle that I could spend years trying to get a deal done. And I'll give you an example. Ey, which of course is a huge. You knew the brand Ey.

Amanda Thomson [00:26:22]:
I won a prize with them. I was one of the winning women along with a lot of American women who had a lovely opportunity, female founders getting together. I was desperate to work with them on a procurement deal. Now, of course, it was as hard as any big corporate procurement deal. But, you know, the hustle also comes to play as an entrepreneur. Right. Okay, I can't get a deal right now with ey. What about if some of them on the entrepreneur program start doing a few corporate gifts? What about if, when, you know, if, when Joanna, who's running the founders program, has a small event in London.

Amanda Thomson [00:26:56]:
What about if we have a few bottles? So, you know, it's about getting the visibility, getting your brand associated with the corporate and often in a smaller way and then seeing if you can then get to the decision maker. And I think that's where people like you are going to be so, so pertinent to this conversation. Because you can bring about change because you've got the power. Because those who don't have the power, we can politely ask all we like, but it, but it just doesn't get anything done, does it? So I think it's about the change makers changing the policies.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:27:32]:
Well, and just talking about them, you know, think about all their employees. Right. It's not just corporate. It's not just big conventions like this. It's your corporate events that you have internally, your national sales meetings or your employee engagement events. Right. Not everybody's going to drink. And you know, how are we incorporating that into.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:27:52]:
It's a benefit of employment, you know, it's, it's under. Allowing all of your employees to bring their whole selves to work. And that includes those who don't drink. Right.

Amanda Thomson [00:28:03]:
You've really got it there. That encapsulates it Beautifully. And I think when you put it like that, it almost seems offensive not to do that. I mean when we kind of think about that world where we've. I had no idea it existed until I was immersed in the space. I wouldn't have thought about that. I was on the other side. And once you're on our side, you kind of go, oh my God.

Amanda Thomson [00:28:28]:
We made it awkward for the Muslim employee who didn't drink, for the ex alcoholic, for the person who was driving, for the pregnant woman who didn't want to announce it, whatever your reason, for the person running a marathon in the morning who didn't want to share his fitness goals, whatever. There's such a myriad of reasons and I think the beauty of Naughty is with our sparkling and the scene when our stills come out is the idea for me with the branding was really important. It needed to sit alongside its premium alcoholic counterpart very comfortably because some people want to publicize the fact that they're not drinking. Many, many others don't. And if you look at the way the younger generation are coming into the working world and you look at the way my generation historically in the corporate world probably drank a bit too much. A lot of them are coming in not drinking, but they still want to seat at the table. And like your event, if somebody comes in who's not drinking, you're almost creating a really obvious signpost like I'm Tracy, I'm not drinking now. It shouldn't be this way, but we all know America uk, that's going to be the first conversation and it's such a boring, irrelevant, unfair conversation.

Amanda Thomson [00:29:44]:
We always say in the alcohol free world where we've got delicious drinks, the question should be what are you drinking? But the interesting thing about events is I find and what naughty does it emolates that where you could have a glass of champagne, I could have a glass of Naughty. It looks like we're drinking the same thing. And I think men have long had that and women who drink beer have long had that sort of crutch where it doesn't have to be that big beacon on their head. And I think that that is another really important part of the corporate world.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:30:15]:
It really, really is. And Hayley Moss who I interviewed a couple of months ago, she's a lawyer and Florida who has a neuro disability and she's like, why do you have to ask me why I don't drink, right? And so, and, and it is the thing when you go to lawyer events or even meeting planning events, right? The thing is to drink but why do you. Why is it important that you ask why I don't drink? Or, you know, oh, really, you can't have just a little bit, Right.

Amanda Thomson [00:30:44]:
It's such actually a personal question, isn't it? I mean, it's super personal. And also, surely we've got better things to talk about. I mean, therein lies the irony, right? I mean, you know, that whole idea that you're boring if you don't drink. Well, wow. I mean, I think, you know, we've all got to work on our personalities there, haven't we? And I understand that a lot of people use it as a crutch, but I think if we are using it as a crutch, it's probably quite useful to take a look at ourselves and work out if that is something we need to think more deeply about. I mean, what a lot of people do with Naughty is I found I've learned they'll have perhaps one glass of champagne and then switch to naughty, you know, which I think is another lovely way to be managing events if you do still drink, obviously. Yeah. But I think around the world as well, they've got zero tolerance on alcohol policy at so many places now.

Amanda Thomson [00:31:42]:
I mean, I know Australia has really tightened up, for example, and of course, in conferencing, I know you're very tight in America in conferencing, often people are not staying the night and they'll often be traveling and driving, you know, and of course, from a corporate management point of view, when it comes to events, you really want to be thinking about your employees wellbeing if they are hitting out that line and then getting in the car.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:32:07]:
Exactly. Well, and I've told this story before, but in my old corporate job, the next morning, the event planner was telling me how this woman had fallen into the fountain because she had too much to drink. And our competitor, the competitor pulled her out. And I'm like, please don't be my employee. Please don't be one of my colleagues. And it was. And she ended up losing her job. And because of the exposure that she, you know, provided to the.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:32:33]:
Everybody knew who she was and who she worked for. And I mean, that's just a shame. And it's. But it's also a shame on the property or the venue. Who. Whose bartenders didn't stop serving her right at the same time.

Amanda Thomson [00:32:46]:
Absolutely.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:32:47]:
Comes with that education, too. Okay, so it's Women's History Month, and I want to know who has influenced you in this. Mom, Dad, a colleague in the industry. What sage advice have they given you to push forward and do this.

Amanda Thomson [00:33:07]:
Well, my father's attitude was always, do not chase money in your life. When I was really young, he was an immigrant and your classic, well, I don't know whether you say $5, $10, £5 in his pocket, you know, I don't know what you say, is it $10? He deposits out the story in America.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:33:25]:
I don't really remember.

Amanda Thomson [00:33:27]:
There's some changes in immigrant stories. But he, his attitude was always, do not chase the money. It comes when you follow your passion. And I remember when I was very young, he taught me, if ever there was an awkward moment, pay that bill, even if you can't afford it, be the first one to offer somebody a drink. So that sort of generosity of heart and spirit, irrespective of your means. And he always sort of had taken that through into his business life. And his attitude was success comes when you're not just chasing the money. And I think as I got older, I've started to reflect more on what that gave me both as a person, in my attitude to money growing up and in recognizing generosity in other people.

Amanda Thomson [00:34:16]:
And also in business, when I am hugely competitive, I am hugely ambitious, I always want to get the deal. But I think it's really interesting that retained at my core, I guess, because I think if you're chasing money in a founder led business, I think it comes out very quickly. I love the term authenticity, which I think you Americans use in a better way than us. But I like that term and I think that you get found out really quite quickly in the modern world if you are fake, both as a person and in business. So I think that that lesson has been very useful for me. Big picture.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:35:03]:
I love that lesson because it should be about your purpose and not about that revenue. And I've been really focusing on the word purpose a lot in the last couple of weeks because food and beverage should have purpose, right? Whether it's ethnically, whether it's culturally, whether it's, you know, just planning a food and beverage event. It should have purpose. And your wine has purpose. It's filling a need of someone. But filling the need helps you pay your bills. Somebody said that to me the last couple of episodes ago. When I fill your need, you fill my, you know, my dinner table at the same time.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:35:42]:
Right. And I love that concept. So looking back, is there anything that you would have done differently since 2016 to now?

Amanda Thomson [00:35:52]:
Everything. I think mostly no, I'm joking. I think I had this conversation, funny enough, with a fellow founder just this morning we were laughing together having a Chatham House Rules. Do you call it Chatham House Rules in America when you have a private conversation. So we say if we were speaking privately we. It must have some wonderful historical story. We would say Chatham House Rules as in not for sharing.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:36:17]:
Gotcha.

Amanda Thomson [00:36:19]:
I'm curious now to find out what the American. Someone will hopefully tell us what the American. What would you do if you, if you're talking off the record or.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:36:27]:
Off the record.

Amanda Thomson [00:36:28]:
Yeah, yeah, off the record.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:36:30]:
Right, yes.

Amanda Thomson [00:36:32]:
I've lost the question now. I've become obsessed with the history of Chatham House Rules. You were asking me what would you.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:36:37]:
What would you have done differently.

Amanda Thomson [00:36:38]:
Differently? And I joked everything. I think hindsight's a really wonderful thing. I'm a very forward facing person. I think as a journalist by trade, you naturally are. You're very zeitgeisty. I've been too early in things. I launched wine in Cannes, arguably too early. I'm very, I'm always up for the next trend and I guess that's why I was in the right place, right time quite early with alcohol free wine.

Amanda Thomson [00:37:08]:
Yeah, there's a lot of things and I think entrepreneurs who build a second business I guess can often write those wrongs. But then you sort of go, but then the story would have been different. My son was talking to me, a teenager, very wise, about the butterfly effect, you know, about how if one thing was different, how then everything becomes different. So, you know, I mean there's a lot. I probably would have had a much more fixed fellow co founder because I've got a key business partner, but I haven't got a fixed fellow founder. And it's a very, very, very lonely journey, entrepreneurship. I mean not in a literal sense because you're always meeting wonderful people, but in a metaphorical sense because so much of the complication and pain of the journey you're dealing with mentally, I suppose. So I think I would probably do that next time.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:38:10]:
That makes a lot of sense. And my friend Don posted something recently. He founded a company called Social Tables and he sold it. And he posted on LinkedIn the other day these are the things that I learned and would do differently. Starting a new business as an entrepreneur and one of them was actually getting a business partner. Right. And so it's really good hindsight. And somebody said and commenting is like this is great for entrepreneurs to read who are starting going forward.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:38:35]:
Right. Lessons learned and how you can share that. So I mean it's very telling because we learn and we can learn from others at the same time, I think.

Amanda Thomson [00:38:45]:
The other thing I would do differently is I've always been very macro. I mentioned that I do, I'm hugely ambitious. I want naughty to really lead the way in the world as the premium alcohol free wine. And then I want to be able to arguably democratize to some extent the alcohol free world so that we have delicious alcohol free wine that's made beautifully but at a keener price point. Because of course, like with delicious organic food. And I was thinking about this when you were talking about the provenance and the in your country and mine, to a certain extent, very sadly good quality food has become quite divided. As in if you are on a breadline, you can't afford to be feeding your family really good organic, providence based food. We have a problem there, don't we? And the same with drinks.

Amanda Thomson [00:39:38]:
So there's lots of big picture ambitions about changing that. But systems, it's not a sexy word. So I always had a macro ambitious plan. I think if I was doing my to do list for new entrepreneurs. Set up your systems very early so that they can scale beautifully very fast. Because we were a fast growth business and I think if I had the time again, I would create systems. By that I mean tech and the back room sort of foundations that were ready to scale straight away. Because I think often you, when you're new to business, you know, I probably thought selling however many hundreds of bottles was a big deal.

Amanda Thomson [00:40:23]:
And when you're chasing a million, 2 million, you know, the systems just aren't always ready for that. So I think I would say think macro on your systems when you're starting. I know that's not sexy advice, but good practical advice.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:40:39]:
Well, it also thinks you have to think about the reporting on the back end. You have to think what do you, what do you want to get out on the back end. And so you can design the front end to give you what you need on the back end. So that I think that macro look of it does help. But it's also sometimes hard to think of what do I need on the back end. Right. If you're originally starting out. Yeah.

Amanda Thomson [00:40:58]:
And I think one more thing which takes me back to your close minded anecdote of the influencer old guy who's like, why do we need alcohol free wine? It would be to develop a very thick skin. As long as your idea is good. Don't spend much time listening to people complaining because I do sort of see a lot of early stage entrepreneurs doing huge amounts. I mean tech's a little less park tech here because tech recommendations are very different. The testing, testing, testing is a whole, whole year, whatever, however long stage. So I'm not talking tech business now, I'm talking more product based business, I guess. You know, just because a lot of people are cynical does not mean you do not have a brilliant idea. So I think surrounding yourself with positive people.

Amanda Thomson [00:41:48]:
Now there is a caveat to this because you do need also those smart people who've got your back who will tell you when things aren't good. But certainly early stage you want people who are going to build you up because the early stages are very tough and if you spend too much time around they cynical people, it can really drag you down mentally. And I think doubt yourself when it comes to your idea too.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:42:11]:
100% agree. And it, you know, even with what I do with food, why do we have to accommodate all these people with dietary restrictions or whatever? Right?

Amanda Thomson [00:42:23]:
Why aren't we?

Tracy Stuckrath [00:42:25]:
Right. And I was actually telling somebody the other day, actually I ran into a guy here at the show who I taught how to swim when he was five and I haven't seen him since, he was probably seven or eight or nine. And I said my career has changed from when I started. You know, it was about here's food allergies, here's celiac, here's this. But it's really all about the purpose and it's about inclusion and diversity and how we use food and beverage differently. We should be using food and beverage differently. And so my 12 years of doing what I'm doing has changed and it really is about the purpose of food and looking at it differently.

Amanda Thomson [00:43:08]:
I love that.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:43:09]:
Yeah, it's a lot of fun, it's challenging and I'm up to it. I'm like you, I'm like, let's just keep doing it. Right?

Amanda Thomson [00:43:16]:
Yeah. And I also think that, you know, life is full of close minded people who will never do anything new. And that's fine. You know, it also leaves a huge gap, I mean in my work. The fact that there were so many closed minded people who thought there was no point to alcohol free wine and it was kind of an oxymoron, left me the gulf. And so I think that's another lovely, quite, quite driving way to use that, you know, I mean, obviously you've got to have a sound idea to start with because I don't want to be, never want to be encouraging people to run away and spend a lot of time and money trying to build a business that's not viable. But as long as Your concept's viable.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:44:02]:
Very, very true. You make, you, you don't want to spin your wheels and not get being able to get anywhere. So is there, have you had to sacrifice? I mean you said you moved your family to Paris up, you know, uprooted your job and changed, changed careers. Is there anything else personally that you've sacrificed throughout the, throughout your career that has propelled you to do, to do more?

Amanda Thomson [00:44:27]:
Yeah, I've sacrificed a lot of things. But I think in, in the sacrifices there are also the opposite gains. I mean I wouldn't be wanting to do this unless I really loved it. I mean the energy I put into this, it's not objectively a healthy amount. And I think you'll find all founders, off the record when they're together, will say the same thing. And so it goes back to that passion and the purpose point. I think you need that at the core. They're not just chasing the money.

Amanda Thomson [00:45:06]:
So I wouldn't have it any other way. I mean it's such a hugely exciting journey. I don't think that the endorphin highs are probably very healthy because you come, you know, it's such an emotional roller coaster and you do become, they say in entrepreneurship, quite addicted to it. And they also say you become unemployable on a corporate level if you're a founder, which I think is probably fairly true depending on the industry. Just because you get so used to making every decision, even decisions you have no bloody idea about. You know what I mean? I mean you become your own boss to such an extent that, I mean, don't get me wrong, if you've got investors, you've got accountability of course, but you know, just in terms of the everyday stuff, I mean, I love it, it's definitely not for everybody. So I've sacrificed a lot of my personal life. I suppose you live out a lot of your life in the public arena.

Amanda Thomson [00:46:06]:
It's quite strange because I used to be the one at the BBC asking the question and I was very private, but now I have to share more of myself. As a founder led business, you sacrifice to some degree a social life because while I attend a lot of lovely dinners, events, wonderful, wonderful things, I get some incredible invitations, I'm there in a work capacity. So even if I'm at a wine dinner at midnight in Sydney, which I mean we all can admit sounds really rather one wonderful and is I'm still working, I'm not there to let my hair down, I'm not there to lose my A game. If someone wants to talk about numbers at midnight, you know, So I think there is that strange, I'm sure, with you in what you do so brilliantly. When you make your passion your purpose, a lot of what you are passionate about becomes linked to your work, you know, So I spend very little time romanticizing wonderful tasting wine in vineyards, which of course really was what led me into the industry. Once you get to the commercial edge of something, then it's kind of a different game, but I wouldn't have it any other way. Yeah, I think it's important to share that it's not for everybody. And I think that we should really celebrate the kitchen table.

Amanda Thomson [00:47:27]:
Entrepreneurs doing a brilliant job who don't want to scale a huge business like I am. It's quite. We need both in the world and we need more women to be doing both in the world successfully.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:47:44]:
I wholeheartedly agree. So, two questions to wrap this up. What brings you the biggest joy? And we talked about what you sacrificed, but what brings you the biggest joy?

Amanda Thomson [00:47:52]:
Three things. Travel, which I've not really had a chance to do much of recently, but have just got back on. I mean, we're being very environmentally friendly and never getting on planes for the sake of getting on planes, and we're doing a lot of work on making sure that that happens. But I do miss seeing the world in a business sense and because we've got so many wonderful partners in the us, in South Korea, in Hong Kong, wherever it might be. And so to travel and get to spend time with them is really rather special and can't be beaten. A deal. I mean, I think you're not a founder who's going to scale a big business without being competitive and loving a deal. And we just got a really big deal in the UK yesterday that I haven't announced yet.

Amanda Thomson [00:48:39]:
But, you know, getting a deal is just huge for me.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:48:44]:
Congratulations and thank you.

Amanda Thomson [00:48:46]:
And really, the people, I mean, in our world, you'll know this. In the hospitality world, the FB world, I mean, people, people, people. I mean, online is the next best thing. Hopefully one day we can break the bread. But yeah, I just work with some really, really special people. And that buzz, when you love hospitality, it gets into your blood, doesn't it?

Tracy Stuckrath [00:49:12]:
It really does. I mean, I don't know what I would do if I wasn't in this industry. And, and I do love meeting people and, and chatting with them. I even love meeting my Uber drivers or Lyft drivers and finding out where they're from. So I just wanted to post two things from. From listeners here. Tom Sullivan said. Enjoyable.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:49:29]:
Thank you. We'll check out your brand.

Amanda Thomson [00:49:31]:
Fantastic. It's dot com.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:49:35]:
And I just posted the link in the chat as well with a zero. Okay, perfect. That's. People need to know that. And then Kelly Ruff is always, always keeping us educated. So it's really important. You know, Amanda, thank you for being here because I want people to be educated about that alcohol free and vegan options that there are in beverages, not just in food, in beverages.

Amanda Thomson [00:49:59]:
And I think Amber is a brilliant website. A N B A American based. And that's doing some brilliant work and for all of the founder led brands, all that I'm working with there in America.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:50:11]:
Okay, great. And I will find that link and post it here at the chat as well. So one final question. What is your favorite food to eat or pair with your Naughty wine?

Amanda Thomson [00:50:21]:
Oh, wow. Okay. So truffle pasta.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:50:28]:
Truffle pasta. Okay, fantastic.

Amanda Thomson [00:50:31]:
I just, just. Oh, I just don't. You or not? I don't know.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:50:36]:
I'm not a truffle fan.

Amanda Thomson [00:50:37]:
Yeah, I just. Maybe it's because I'm, I'm plant based. So truffle just gives you that umami. I don't know. Truffle pasta. Naughty. Now I want that tonight.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:50:48]:
Well, and somebody was over here in the market, in the press room, somebody's got dried mushrooms in a bag and they're flat. So I, I'm not a huge mushroom fan, but I'm gonna try them because they sounded really interesting and they're so nutritious, so.

Amanda Thomson [00:51:03]:
Absolutely. And listen, I'm counting on you now, since Naughty's not officially at the Natural Products Expo, I'm counting on you to spread the naughty word now, Tracy.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:51:12]:
I will do that, I promise. Yes. Well, Amanda Thompson, thank you so much for doing what you're doing and being a part of the show today and sharing, you know, the value of non alcoholic vegan wine. Appreciate it.

Amanda Thomson [00:51:27]:
I'm delighted. And the pleasure was all mine. Thank you so much, Tracy. You're a brilliant change maker.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:51:33]:
Well, thank you. And I appreciate you for making history. You are making history and we commend you for doing that. And I look forward to seeing the future history that you make.

Amanda Thomson [00:51:44]:
You're too good.

Tracy Stuckrath [00:51:45]:
Thanks for listening to the Eating at a Meeting podcast where every meal matters. I'm Tracy Star, your food and beverage inclusion expert. Call me and let's get started right now on creating safe and inclusive food and beverage experiences for your customers, your employees and your communities. Share the podcast with your friends and colleagues. At our Eating at a Meeting Facebook page and on all podcast platforms. To learn more about me and receive valuable information, go to tracystuckrath.com and if you'd like more information on how to feed engagement, nourish inclusion, and bolster your bottom line, then visit eatingatameeting.com.